Disputation Between Herman Vleckwijk and Friar Cornelis, in the Year 1569

Fr. Corn. [n968-8] I would say, Good day, Herman; but I am still quite wrought up and angry from yesterday, at your accursed hedge preacher, or teacher, who has so wickedly seduced, deceived, crazed, bedeviled and bewitched you and your fellow Anabaptists by his damnable, hellish, Anabaptistic heresies, out there in the miserable Gruthuysbosch. Hence I must now come here and try whether I can draw you away again from this Anabaptism, and convert you to our Catholic Christian faith. Do you have a mind for it, or not? Let us hear now.

Herm. To judge from your speaking, I should think that you are angry, and if you had not told me yourself, I would have thought that you wanted to frighten me. But why are you so angry at that friendly, pleasant man, who I think did not give you one hard word?

Fr. Corn. He nevertheless called me a papist once or twice; but I do not care * * * for that. But I am very angry that he would in no way allow himself to be converted from his accursed Anabaptism and all other accursed heresies, in regard to which I have spent so much labor in vain; and the most vexatious of all is that, though I so well showed him, and convinced him of, his bad, evil, wicked, false, heretical faith, as these good lords have well heard, it was all of no avail; ill betide him.

Herm. I think that he nevertheless clearly showed you with the holy Scriptures that his faith is in Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God. By what, then, could you show him that his faith is bad, evil, wicked, false, and heretical, as you say?

Fr. Corn. Fie, alas! I already hear by this answer that I shall win no laurels in the way of converting you. But in good faith, do you people think it enough only to believe in Jesus Christ? Ah, bah, all the devils of hell believe in Jesus Christ; bah, see here now, what we are tormented with. Bah, you ought to, and must also, on pain of the damnation of your soul, believe in all the other articles of the Christian faith, and the excellent, holy institutions of our mother the holy Roman Church, which by our holy fathers, the popes, have in all general holy councils been ordained and decreed to be believed and observed. But you Anabaptists neither believe nor observe anything of them, unless it is very plainly stated in the holy Scriptures; for if there are any matters contained in the Scriptures that seem somewhat obscure to you, you will by no means believe them; as, for instance, all that is contained in the holy Scriptures concerning prayer for the refreshing and deliverance of the souls in purgatory; nor all that is said in them respecting the seven sacraments; nor all that they say concerning priestly authority; nor all that is found in them regarding the transubstantiation, or change, of the bread and wine into the real flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, in the Sacrament of the altar; nor all that they contain concerning the perpetual virginity and purity of Mary, the blessed mother of God. No, these and very many other holy articles you will not believe; indeed, what is still more abominable, the worthy blessed mother of God, whom you ought and are in duty bound to honor, serve, invoke, and entreat, that she would intercede for you with her dear Son — her you Anabaptists do not esteem better than your filthy, * * * sinful wives. And in like manner you despise and reject all the holy saints and saintesses whom you ought to honor, fast to them, celebrate, invoke, and entreat, that they would stand as advocates or mediators between God and you, and intercede for you; bah! Is this not a fine thing? Bah, you are silent: answer me, why you heretics bear such enmity and hatred to the worthy, blessed mother of God, and to all God's saints; let us hear now.

Herm. That we should hate Mary the mother of Jesus Christ, and the saints of God — far be this from us; but that we do not invoke and entreat them to stand as advocates or mediators between God and us, this is because John, in the second chapter of his first epistle, says: "If any man sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world," In like manner, Paul writes to Timothy, in the second chapter of his first epistle: "There is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus: who gave himself a ransom for all." In the same manner he also writes to the Hebrews, in the ninth chapter. But we do not hate our enemies; how then should we hate God's saints, our fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord?

Fr. Corn. Indeed? If they are your fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord, why then do you bear such enmity and hatred to them, that you help burn or destroy their relics or bones, and break their images to pieces, wherever you have been able to get at them? Is this not a fine brotherhood and sisterhood? Accursed Anabaptists that you are.

Herm. We do not meddle with your affairs; if you would leave us alone in our faith and in our walk and conversation, as we leave you alone in your religion, and with your images, relics or dead men's bones, your hands would remain unstained with and innocent of our blood. But you generation of Cain first killed the saints of God; and then you take them to exalt and honor them with fasting and celebrating, and erect to them idolatrous images, which they themselves despised and rejected, and you honor their bones, as Christ says, Luke 11, verse 47

"Woe to you! for you build the sepulchres of the prophets: and your fathers killed them." Truly you bear witness that you allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and you build their sepulchres. Therefore also says the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will slay and persecute: that the blood of all the prophets [which was shed from the foundation of the world] may be required of this generation; from the blood of Abel. Matthew 23.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah! Would you * * * accursed Anabaptists compare yourselves to the prophets, apostles, and to God's holy martyrs, popes and priests, whose blood was shed for the Catholic, Christian faith, of which you Anabaptists are now such enemies, that you through the rejection of the sacrament of the priesthood reject, not only the six other sacraments, and all our Christian ceremonies and acts of worship, but also all the articles of the Christian, Catholic faith, as I have said; therefore you are put to death. Do you understand this, you uncouth, blockheaded Anabaptist that you are?

Herm. However uncouth and blockheaded I am, I understand very well that you put us to death because we do not believe or observe these popish, or Romish, church articles, part of which you have mentioned. And you think that you do God service by killing us for it, as Christ says (John 16, verses 2 and 3): "They will put you out of the synagogues; indeed, the time is coming when whoever kills you will think that he does God service. And these things they will do to you, because they have not known the Father, nor me."

Fr. Corn. Bah! You bewitched and devil possessed Anabaptists, would you also gladly claim this for your side; would you? Bah, and would you charge and upbraid us priests and Catholics with such things, would you? Bah, and would you also say that we priests know neither God nor His Son Jesus Christ, would you? Ah, bah! Who knows God and Jesus Christ better than we Catholic priests? Hence this is all spoken concerning the Jewish priests, and concerning the Anabaptists, Calvinists, Lutherans, and other heretics, who in France and Spain, in these lands and elsewhere, so tyrannically persecute, trouble, torment, and martyrize us priests, because we have the true knowledge of God and Christ, see.

Herm. It is to be feared that Christ will not know you, though you think that you know Him so very well; for you are of so many different orders and rules. You are a Franciscan, the other an Augustinian, the other a Carmelite, the other a Jacobine or Dominican, the other a Benedictine; indeed, innumerable are the orders and sects into which you are divided, and each has its special ceremonies and rules, according to which he must live, of which not a word is found in the teaching of Christ; how then will he know you!

Fr. Corn. Indeed? You hellish, devilish Anabaptist, though we are so diverse in regard to orders, rules and ceremonies, are we ecclesiastics not all comprehended in one sacrament of priesthood, eh?

Herm. Your sacrament of priesthood is nevertheless an article like all the other articles of your faith, of which nothing is found written in the holy Scriptures; hence I have no knowledge of it, nor faith in it.

Fr. Corn. Ah, you accursed Anabaptist, answer me then, why God the Father should not be willing to know us, who are His priests; for do we not daily, in the mass, offer up His Son Jesus Christ, in flesh and blood? Bah, whom should they both know better than us, their priests? What will you say now, eh?

Herm. How shall I tell you here the secret of the mass? I do not know it myself; but you know it very well.

Fr. Corn. Indeed? If you do not know the secret of the mass, how is it then that you heretics undertake to describe such an accursed "Death bed of the mass?" in which it says that the mass, as it were, is lying sick of a putrid ulcer, which she has in her canon, and of which she will have to die. Bah! And do you accursed heretics then not know the secret of the mass, as you call it? Bah! May the devil skin you with the "Death bed of the mass," accursed Anabaptists that you are.

Herm. We have not composed or written the book of the "Death bed of the mass," and do you take it so ill that I speak of the secret of the mass? Is it not a common saying, also among the papists, that when they are asked about something which they do not wish to tell, they generally answer: "I do not want to tell the secret of the mass."

Fr. Corn. Bah! The devil and his mother have introduced this saying among the laity. I wish that all who use it would sink together through the earth into the abyss of hell, that I would.

Recorder. O father Cornelis, the people say it without thinking any evil by it; I have frequently heard priests say it, and to confess the truth, I have often said it myself, without any evil thought or reflection.

Fr. Corn. Well, that is enough of it; but, you Anabaptist, answer me whether you believe that the real flesh and blood of Christ Jesus are offered up by us priests in the mass; let us hear.

Herm. You must ask me concerning things that are contained in the holy Scriptures; for I have not studied your faith or religion.

Fr. Corn. Indeed? You crazy, bedeviled Anabaptist, and would you only be asked concerning things that are expressly contained in the holy Scriptures? Come on then, now I will soundly ask you in regard to things that are most clearly contained in the holy Scriptures. Bah! I have heard it said that you have grown-up children running about at home who are still unbaptized; nevertheless Christ, in the third chapter of John, says to Nicodemus: "Truly, truly, unless every man is born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Bah, is this not something that is contained in the holy Scriptures, eh?

Herm. When the apostles, according to the command of Christ (Matthew 28), went and taught all nations to believe in Jesus Christ before they baptized them, did the converts to the faith, in the meantime, while they were being instructed, also go about unbaptized at home?

Fr. Corn. Bah, and if your children should die in the meantime, would they not go to the devil in hell, I suppose?

Herm. No, no more than the children or converts to the faith in the time of the apostles.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah! That was another thing; those children were circumcised, and by that they were saved, though they died unbaptized; bah, here you are in a corner, happen what will, yes, yes, yes!

Herm. Those children were not all circumcised; for the faith in Jesus Christ was preached and taught also among the uncircumcised Gentiles; now I am out of the corner again.

Fr. Corn. Indeed? I shall put you in the corner again. Bah! As the children of the uncircumcised Gentiles who died without baptism went to the devil, so your children who die without baptism also go into eternal perdition; do you understand this?

Herm. Our children who die before baptism certainly do not go into eternal perdition, any more than did the children of the Old Testament who died uncircumcised before the eighth day.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah! Do you think that the children of the Old Testament who died uncircumcised before the eighth day are saved? Bah, this would be a fine thing.

Herm. Yes, this we think, without once doubting it, and I am surprised to hear you doubt it.

Fr. Corn. Bah, what do you make of the original sin then, which the children inherit from Adam and Eve, eh?

Herm. What do you make of the death of Christ? For John the Baptist said: "Behold, the Lamb of God, who bears away the sin of the world." John 1, verse 29.

Fr. Corn. Bah, Christ bears away all the sin of the world, as you Anabaptists understand, think and believe. Bah, who then shall be damned? No one, I suppose.

Herm. Christ says in the sixteenth chapter of Mark: "He who does not believe shall be damned;" but He nowhere says: "He who is not baptized (understand, in infancy) shall be damned."

Fr. Corn. Bah, here you lie with your vile, false, lying mouth; for did I not tell you that in the third chapter of Saint John it is written that Christ said to Nicodemus: "Truly, truly, unless every man is born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God?" bah! Here I have certainly cornered you, have I not, eh?

Herm. No; for Christ there speaks of no external baptism, nor does He mention baptism; but He speaks of the regeneration which is performed by the Spirit of God, who is sometimes also called a water in the holy Scriptures. For thus says the Lord by the prophet Isaiah in the forty-fourth chapter (verse 3): "I will pour water upon him who is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my Spirit upon your seed." Again, by the prophet Ezekiel, in the thirty-sixth chapter (verses 25 and 26): "I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you." Again, in the thirty-ninth chapter (verse 29), the Lord says by Ezekiel: "I have poured out my Spirit upon the house of Israel." Again, by the prophet Joel, in the second chapter (verse 28):

"Then will I pour out my Spirit upon all flesh," and so on.

Fr. Corn. Well, all this is done through the sacrament of baptism, when the children are baptized; for then the devil is exorcised by the priest, and they are cleansed from the original sin inherited from Adam and Eve, and they obtain a new heart and a new spirit; bah, this is how God pours or sheds His Spirit upon all flesh; you will not cheat me out of this, you are cornered and remain cornered, see!

Herm. I tell you again that Christ, when He talked with Nicodemus, meant such a regeneration as does not concern external baptism, nor does it concern children; but it concerns the true believers in Christ, who are begotten according to the will of God, by the word of truth, as James says in the first chapter. Again, Peter, in the first chapter of his first epistle, says: "See that you love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever." Of similar Scriptures, which do not concern little children or external baptism, there are more yet.

Fr. Corn. Bah, but if the regeneration of water and of the Spirit does not concern children, they must certainly and unmistakably go to the devil; for you acknowledge yourself that he who does not believe will be damned. Bah, children certainly do not believe, as you also say. And when they besides remain unbaptized, and die thus, they must surely be damned; for by what other way could they be saved, eh?

Herm. By the death of Christ, as I have told you. And Christ also says (Matthew 5, verses 18 and 19) that to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.

Fr. Corn. Yes, these are the same arguments with which your hedge preacher yesterday made my spleen run over. Bah, what does all this disputing and arguing amount to; if you would suffer yourself to be converted, you must be willing to be taught, and brought to the Catholic, Christian faith of our mother, the holy Roman church, and to her baptism and religion. Bah, why will you trust so much in the heresies of that damned arch heretic, Menno Simons, and rely so firmly upon this bewitched hedge preacher? Bah, why do you not believe me as well as that Menno Simons? For I am as learned, and have read as much, and certainly much more, than this * * * bishop, Jacob the weaver, and a Dietrick Phillips, and an Ubbo Frisius, and such devil's brood, I suppose, eh?

Herm. I do not trust (or build) upon Menno Simons, nor upon any man; for the prophet Jeremiah says in his seventeenth chapter (verse 5):

"Thus says the Lord: Cursed be the man who trusts in man."

Fr. Corn. This is very true; in this you say very well, see; if you begin to talk like this, I feel quite hopeful that I will convert you, with the help of God, from this miserable Anabaptism. So I will first prevail upon you to renounce it, and to have your unbaptized children baptized in the Catholic church, by a priest, as a good Christian is in duty bound to do, see. Well, Herman, what do you think of this, eh?

Herm. I do not think that you are the man who will convert me to your mother, the Roman church, or who will bring me to the point of having my unbaptized children baptized in the papistic church.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah, how you talk in this strain again; a thousand devils (God bless us), what has come over you? It seems as though he would trust no longer in Menno Simons, nor in any other man; but as soon as I begin with kindness and friendliness to admonish him to renounce Anabaptism, and to have his unbaptized children baptized in our Catholic church, he instantly pipes another tune. Is this not a fine thing? If you will not be converted, and have your unbaptized children baptized in our church, after the Catholic rite, you can be burned alive at the stake, see.

Herm. This you papists could also do just as well, even if I turned from my faith and had my unbaptized children baptized in your church.

Fr. Corn. Be sure, we could; but we would give you the sword. If you will suffer yourself to be converted with kindness, I assure you the sword, that I do.

Herm. For what purpose should you give me a sword? It would be of no use to me, for we use no swords.

Fr. Corn. Tush, tush, tush! You well understand what I mean by it: you would only be beheaded with the sword, see.

Herm. After I should have truly and unfeignedly confessed that I had erred in the faith, and after I should have my unbaptized children baptized in your church, would I then, according to your saying or meaning, not be a good, upright Christian?

Fr. Corn. Jesus, yes, Herman, and should you not in every manner, yes, you, faithful Herman, be as good a Christian as anyone can be? This is what I like to hear, see.

Herm. And would you papists make no sin of it, to shed the blood of such a good, upright Christian?

Fr. Corn. Fie, tush, tush, tush, bah, is it nothing else? You would have to die nevertheless, because you had apostatized from the Catholic Christian faith and had yourself rebaptized, see.

Herm. The shepherd of the hundred sheep, of whom Christ speaks in the fifteenth chapter of Luke, still did not cut the throat of the lost or strayed sheep when He had found it; but He laid it upon His shoulders and carried it home rejoicing.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah! What is the use of all this raving and prating? If you want to be converted, be converted, and recant; what shall I say of this? Bah, I should sooner convert the devil in hell and his mother than I could convert one of these obdurate, petrified Anabaptists; this I swear to you, that I do.

Herm. Therefore I said that you are not the man who will be able to prove to me from the holy Scriptures that my faith, and my baptism, which I received upon confession of my faith in Jesus Christ, is evil; how then should you be able to convert me from it?

Fr. Corn. Indeed? But what devil in hell makes you people so presumptuous that you have yourselves rebaptized, who have once been baptized? Show me once from the holy Scriptures that a Christian who has once been baptized is to have himself rebaptized. Bah, I stake my neck that you will not be able to show this to me from the holy Scriptures, see.

Herm. Alas! poor Friar Cornelis, you have already lost your neck; for in the nineteenth chapter of the Acts of the Apostles it is written: "And it came to pass that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul, having passed through the upper coasts, came to Ephesus; and finding certain disciples, he said to them, Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? And they said to him, We have not so much as heard whether there is any Holy Ghost. And he said to them, Into what then were you baptized? And they said, Into John's baptism. Then Paul said, John truly baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on him who should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." Now, poor Friar Cornelis, here you lose your neck.

Fr. Corn. Enough, ah, bah, if they had been rightly baptized, Paul would not have caused them to be rebaptized. No, I have not yet lost my neck, that I have not.

Herm. Well then, I answer the same; if I had been rightly baptized, I would also not have had myself rebaptized. But now you can well hear that you have unjustly so often called me an accursed Anabaptist.

Fr. Corn. But you were certainly very well baptized; for the priest had baptized you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. And afterwards, only six or seven years ago, you had yourself baptized again; are you therefore not an accursed, damned Anabaptist, eh?

Herm. I was not baptized upon my faith in Jesus Christ, but in my unbelief; and when I heard and understood this, I had myself baptized upon my faith, as Christ Himself has said in the sixteenth chapter of Mark: "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved." Am I therefore an accursed, damned Anabaptist?

Fr. Corn. Yes, you are and remain a damned, accursed Anabaptist, if you do not become converted. For Saint Paul says that there is but one God, one faith, and one baptism; is it not Anabaptism then, to have oneself rebaptized?

Herm. For this reason you papists are justly (according to your saying) called Anabaptists by the Calvinists, because you have rebaptized in your churches their children that had been baptized once out here in their preaching.

Fr. Corn. O you awkward, blockheaded Anabaptist, those children were not rightly baptized, and you know yourself well enough how to prove from the nineteenth chapter of the Acts of the Apostles that Saint Paul caused those who had not been rightly baptized under John's baptism to be rebaptized. Bah, are we Catholics Anabaptists? I suppose so. * * * What shall I say now? Does it now become fool's work altogether with the sacrament of baptism? See with what we are now tormented and vexed. Would you, accursed Anabaptist, now begin to call us Catholics Anabaptists? Bah!

Herm. I do not call you Anabaptists; for I only say that the Calvinists call you Anabaptists, because you rebaptize their children, whom they had once baptized.

Fr. Corn. * * *

(He spoke here only vile words of abuse.)

Herm. Our baptism is nevertheless administered according to the institution of Christ; for in our church the believing are baptized, but you baptize the unbelieving.

Fr. Corn. Bah, the sponsors believe on behalf of the children until they are old enough to believe themselves; do you understand this?

Herm. No; I find nothing said in the Scriptures about sponsors, nor about one man believing on behalf of another.

Fr. Corn. Bah, now you are clearly cornered; for does not Saint Luke say in the fifth chapter that Christ saw the faith of the bearers who let down the man afflicted with the palsy, through the roof with his couch, and that He therefore healed him and forgave his sins, eh? Bah, here for once I have clearly cornered you; get out if you can. Now you have spectacles on your nose, have you not, eh?

Herm. No; for from this it is not to be understood that the man afflicted with the palsy did not himself believe, or was without faith, as are the children whom you baptize.

Fr. Corn. Bah, the old fathers or teachers of our mother, the holy Roman Catholic church, do nevertheless understand that the bearers of the man afflicted with the palsy signify the sponsors, who hold the children when they are being baptized, and believe on behalf of the children till these are old enough to believe for themselves; for to this end the sacrament of confirmation is instituted, to put the children, when they are old enough to believe themselves, in remembrance that they were baptized. Bah, I could very well show you this from the ancient fathers, but you Anabaptists will rely most firmly on the holy Scriptures alone, so that you will not once listen to the ancient fathers or teachers of the holy church. Bah, it seems, as the provincial of the Augustinians tells me, that when one begins to mention something to you from Saint Jerome, Saint Ambrose, Saint Augustine, Saint Gregory, or some other ancient fathers, you people carry on in just such a crazy and ugly manner as though one began to speak to you of the very devil — is this not a fine thing?

Herm. Because we wish to be only Christians, therefore we do not want to listen to the teachings of the ancient fathers; for they describe popery, as of sponsors, of the sacrament of confirmation, and the whole popery which you follow and observe:

Fr. Corn. O you damned, accursed Anabaptist, do you call the sacrament of confirmation popery?

Herm. What else is it then? For I have never read in the holy Scriptures of the sacrament of confirmation.

Fr. Corn. Bah, and are so dull, awkward and blockheaded that you do not understand it, though you read of it; for confirmation means the imposition of hands, see.

Herm. Ah, does it mean this? Pardon me that through my awkwardness and dullness I do not understand such very high and fine Latin.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah, did I say it is Latin? See here.

Herm. What language is it then? I certainly would like to know.

Fr. Corn. Bah, that I do not know myself; but we Catholics understand by the word confirmation the sacrament of confirmation, or the laying on of the hands of the bishop, when our bishops and suffragans confirm grown-up children or adults, as the apostles also did; hence it is that I say that you sectarians read of many holy sacramental things in the Scriptures which you do not understand, and therefore you do not know our sacrament of confirmation, that you do not.

Herm. If your bishops or suffragans by such confirmation and laying on of hands could give the Holy Ghost to the grown-up children and adults, and if they spoke with tongues and prophesied as the apostles did, and also those upon whom they laid their hands, then I should very well understand and know your confirmation.

Fr. Corn. Bah, there had to be miracles then, when the people did not believe yet, in order that they might believe the apostles; do you understand this, you stupid Anabaptist?

Herm. If Christ had commanded you to imitate such laying on of hands, He would also do those miracles through you. Hence, when your bishops do such miracles with their confirmation and imposition of hands, then I shall believe you too.

Fr. Corn. Tush, tush, tush, these are the same arguments and chatterings which your accursed hedge preacher also advanced yesterday against the sacrament of confirmation and the sacrament of extreme unction. Bah, though Christ Himself did not command us to imitate it, the apostles commanded us to do it; for does not Saint James, in the fifth chapter, command that when anyone is sick, the priests of the church are to be sent for, to pray over him and to anoint him with oil, eh?

Herm. The oil of which James writes must have been another oil than your oil; for with that the sick were anointed so that they should recover from their sickness, and they did recover from it. But you priests do the very opposite; for if you knew beforehand that the sick should recover, and not die, you would not anoint them with oil; for you anoint no sick persons with oil except those who you think will die.

Fr. Corn. Bah, my lords, did I not well know that it would be the same thing which it was yesterday with their hedge preacher? Bah, I lay you a wager that if I begin to prove to him, from the same fifth chapter of Saint James, the sacrament of confession, he will also say, as his hedge preacher said yesterday, that I also ought to confess my sins to him; just see with what we are tormented and vexed.

Herm. Did this seem to you so strange an answer from him? For it is nevertheless written:

"Confess your sins one to another." But when you priests learn from people all that you wish to know, then you let them go, and do not yourselves confess to them who have confessed (as you call it) their sins to you.

Fr. Corn. Yes, we call it confession, and it is confession, and shall remain confession, in spite of your teeth. Ah, bah, would it not be a fine thing if we priests also had to kneel down and confess ourselves to the laity; and would they have the power to absolve us from sin? I suppose so. Bah, what a fine absolution that would be! Bah, and if I here confess myself to you, would you be so presumptuous as to think that you have power to loose or forgive my sins, eh?

Herm. Such power as you or all priests have to forgive sin, all men have; for Christ says, Mark 11, verse 25: "Forgive, if you have anything against any, that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses." Again, Luke 6, verse 37: "Forgive, and you shall be forgiven."

Fr. Corn. O you accursed Anabaptist, have you laymen priestly authority to forgive sin in confession? Bah, the forgiveness of sin of which Christ speaks, Mark 11; Luke 6, does not concern confession or absolution. * * * Bah, we priests have in the sacrament of confession and absolution a special priestly authority to forgive and to retain sin, that we do.

Herm. Where do you priests get a special authority to forgive sin, more than we, whom you call laymen?

Fr. Corn. Bah, this special authority Christ delivered to His vicar, Saint Peter, and Saint Peter left it to his vicars the popes, and the popes impart to us of that power, because they cannot themselves in person everywhere hear confession and absolve, see.

Herm. That the popes and you priests have the special power to forgive and to retain sin, which Christ gave to Peter, this you will not be able to show to me with the holy Scriptures.

Fr. Corn. Indeed? O you accursed Anabaptist, the executioner will be able very well to show it to you, by kindling a good fire * * * and the very devils in hell will also show it to you with burning pitch, brimstone, and tar in the fire of hell; this I swear to you, that I do.

Herm. You papists can demonstrate your faith, doctrine and religion with nothing better than with the executioner, and with sword, fire, rope and gallows; for these are the best demonstrations or proofs which you have, and so your forefathers demonstrated their faith and doctrine to God's prophets, to Christ, to His apostles, and to the saints of God, from the blood of Abel until now.

Fr. Corn. Ha, you hellish, devilish, damned, accursed Anabaptists, what do you take our holy fathers the popes and us priests for? May thunder and lightning kill, burn and pulverize you. Bah, that I should so excite, exasperate and disquiet myself for such an accursed Anabaptist.

Clerk of the criminal court. Tush, tush, Father Cornelis, and Herman, speak gently with each other.

Fr. Corn. Yes indeed, be gentle toward such bedeviled, bewitched heretics, who do not believe anything. In good faith, do you Anabaptists then go thus unconfessed and unabsolved to your supper? I suppose so; for you regard it but as a bit of simple common bread, and a little draught of common, flat wine. The transubstantiation in the sacrament of the altar with you is only popery, indeed sorcery, and we priests are regarded as sorcerers by you, because we adjure and conjure the true flesh and blood of Christ in the host and in the cup, as you Sacramentarians say, ill betide you.

Herm. Such confession, or absolution, or sacrament of the altar we do not use in our church, but we observe such forgiveness of sins as Christ commands us, Mark, chapter 11; and Luke, chapter 6, and such breaking of bread, and distribution of the cup, as He in His last supper commands us to do in remembrance of Him.

Fr. Corn. Bah, but by that forgiveness of sins Christ means this: when your neighbor has done something amiss to you. But I ask about the sins which you people have sinned against God, whether you go with these unconfessed and unabsolved to your devil's supper, eh?

Herm. We pray as Christ has taught us, Matthew 6, verse 12. "Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." And we use no devil's supper.

Fr. Corn. Your breaking of bread, and distribution of the cup is the devil's supper of which Paul writes in the tenth chapter of his first epistle to the Corinthians: "You cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils; you cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. But the cup of blessing which we bless," that is, we Catholics, "is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?" Bah, and is your bit of bread, and your cup with a little draught of flat wine not a devil's supper? For you sacramentarians do not bless your cup, nor do you consecrate your bit of bread, but it is wine and bread, and remains wine and bread; bah, let us hear what you can answer against this, that will be conclusive.

Herm. In regard to this, I must ask you whether you yourself believe that Christ in His last supper meant no other body or flesh, and no other blood, than that which was to be broken and shed on the cross for the remission of sins.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah; and should I not believe this? This is quite Catholic, that it is.

Herm. Well, you will certainly also confess, I think, that the bread which the apostles ate at the supper was not crucified.

Fr. Corn. Bah, what hellish, devilish, heretical question is this? Never in all the days of my life did I hear such a deep question. Bah, I believe and know very well that the apostles ate the same body or flesh of Jesus Christ which the day after the supper was to be crucified, see.

Herm. Therefore, poor man, you do not understand the sense or meaning of Christ, though Paul in the tenth chapter of the first epistle to the Corinthians very clearly explains it, saying

"Behold Israel after the flesh; are not those who eat of the sacrifice partakers of the altar?" Thus also we, in the eating of the bread, and in the drinking of the wine, are partakers of the body and blood of Christ.

Fr. Corn. Bah, you accursed Sacramentarian, would you compare the flesh of God to the rotten flesh of oxen, and the lousy flesh of sheep, and to the rotten, putrid flesh of goats and other beasts and carrion? * * * Bah, fie, what abominable and horrible heresy is this?

Herm. You understand neither Paul nor me; for what I say is this, that Paul by this comparison of the sacrifices of the altar (which the Jews ate, and thereby became partakers of the sacrifice in the remission of sins) explains and expounds the communion or participation of the broken bread and of the cup of wine (which we eat and drink in remembrance of the body and blood of Christ), that we thus also become partakers in the washing from sins through the body and blood of Christ, which He offered up for the sins of the world.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah, see, now I plainly understand your heretical, Sacramentarian meaning, that you only make comparisons and memorials of the flesh and blood of Christ. Eh, accursed Anabaptist, why then does Saint Paul say, in the eleventh chapter of his first epistle to the Corinthians: "Therefore whoever eats this bread, and drinks this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread and drink of that cup. For he who eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body." Bah, answer me once to this, you accursed Sacramentarian, that you are.

Herm. In the tenth chapter of the first epistle to the Corinthians Paul writes: "We being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread." Again in the twelfth chapter

"We are all members of one body." If we then are members of one body, to which Christ has united us together by His baptism and by His Spirit, no outward sign could be more fitting, to show or signify the union of one body, than that in the breaking of bread we all become partakers of one bread, in token that we being many are one bread and body. Likewise it is also with the wine; for as many grains are ground together, and made into one bread, so of many grapes one drink is made. Therefore let everyone examine himself, whether he is worthy of the communion of the bread and of the cup of the Lord, and whether he loves his fellow brother with a pure heart: for if he hates his brother, and does not love him, and would besides make himself a partaker yet of the bread and of the cup of the Lord as though he were a member of Christ, he shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, and shall eat judgment to himself, not discerning that the body of the Lord is signified by this communion or participation, that we are members of one body, into which Christ has united us.

Fr. Corn. Tush, tush, tush! It seems that you also could preach a little sermon in the Gruthuysbosch. Bah, these people know nothing else to do but preach; but you would have to preach a long time to me before I would believe that a man will eat and drink judgment to himself on a bit of common bread, and a little draught of wine, by which you Sacramentarians would only signify the body and blood of Christ. Bah, I would rather believe that God's name is Henry, that I would.

Herm. What greater importance was there in the sacrifices of the Jews, of sheep and doves, than in the bread and wine, which are all types of the true sacrifice which Christ made on the cross in His own flesh and blood? And if the Jews had nevertheless, according to the command of Christ, to lay down their offering before the altar, and first go and become reconciled to their brother, before they were to offer, then a Christian also ought first to examine himself, before he partakes of the bread and the cup of the Lord.

Fr. Corn. Bah, a thousand devils, God bless us, if the bread and the wine are only types of the true sacrifice of the flesh and blood of Christ on the cross, why then does He say in the sixth chapter of John: "The bread that I will give is my flesh;" again: "My flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed; therefore he who eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, shall live forever," eh?

Herm. This argument is against yourself, for you would say that the bread is therefore the body of Christ, and the wine His blood, because Paul says that whoever eats and drinks it unworthily eats and drinks judgment to himself. And here Christ says: "He who eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, shall live forever." If therefore that bread and wine of which Paul writes were the flesh and blood of Christ, no one could therein eat judgment to himself.

Fr. Corn. Bah, this accursed Sacramentarian would torment and pester us here, I suppose, with all these abominable blasphemies against God's true body and blood. Bah, the very devil of hell sits in his accursed mouth.

Herm. I have not mentioned one word about the body and blood of God; how then can I have blasphemed against it?

Fr. Corn. O you accursed Anabaptist and Sacramentarian, are the body and blood of Christ not also the body and blood of God? Are God the Father and the Son of God not one God, or would you make two Gods of them? Bah, are you also a Trinitarian, I suppose, eh?

Herm. Yet you said, when you wanted to dispute about the mass, that you priests daily in the mass offer up to God His Son Jesus Christ; hence you make a distinction between God and the body of His Son, which you now begin to call the flesh and body of God.

Fr. Corn. Bah, the devil and his mother wag your tongue. You would now like to bite into my trap, would you? Ah, you wicked, vile, false, crafty Anabaptist and Sacramentarian, indeed, also Trinitarian, because you speak so abominably of the holy Trinity, do you then not believe that Christ is the second person in the Godhead of the holy Trinity? Bah, it seems not, from your speaking.

Herm. We only know how to speak of things that are mentioned in the holy Scriptures.

Fr. Corn. O you Trinitarian, do we not read in the holy Scriptures of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of God the Holy Ghost, eh?

Herm. Yet the holy Scriptures speak of only one God, and of the Son of the living God, and of the Holy Ghost.

Fr. Corn. Indeed? You accursed Trinitarian; if you would read the symbol* of Athanasius, you would read of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of God the Holy Ghost, which three persons are therein called one true God, of whom the Father is the first person in the Godhead; the Son is the second person in the Godhead, and the Holy Ghost is the third person in the Godhead; and these three persons constitute the holy Trinity, that they do. Do you understand now, you Trinitarian, eh?

Herm. I have not studied the symbol of Athanasius; for it is enough for me that I believe in the living God, and that Christ is the Son of the living God, as Peter believed (Matthew 16), and in the Holy Ghost, which is shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, as Paul writes in the third chapter of his epistle to Titus. [n968-1]

Fr. Corn. Indeed? You are certainly fine fellows, that God should shed His Holy Spirit upon you who will not believe that the Holy Ghost is also God Himself. But this heresy you pick up and study in the devilish books of that accursed Erasmus of Rotterdam, who in his preface to the books of Saint Hilary writes that Saint Hilary, at the end of his twelfth book, says that the Holy Ghost is nowhere in the holy Scriptures called God, but that we have become so presumptuous as to dare to call the Holy Ghost God, which the ancient teachers of the church did not dare do. In like manner this wicked Erasmus is also a great enemy of the divinity of Christ. Ah, bah! Would you follow this damned Trinitarian, eh?

Herm. We follow neither Erasmus nor Hilary, but we follow the holy Scriptures, as Hilary and Erasmus do here.

Fr. Corn. Though the holy Scriptures nowhere call the Holy Spirit God, what does it matter? The Holy Ghost Himself has inspired our mother the holy Roman Catholic church to call Him God, as appears from the symbol of Athanasius, see. But in good faith, if you believe the holy Scriptures, why then will you not believe in the divinity of Christ, eh?

Herm. Far be it from us that we should not believe in the divinity of Christ, that He is divine and heavenly, and not earthly, as you people believe; therefore we are put to death by you.

Fr. Corn. * * * Bah, we put you to death because you people will not believe that Christ assumed the seed of Mary His blessed mother, see.

Herm. We believe that the Word became flesh, as John writes in the first chapter of his Gospel.

Fr. Corn. Bah, now I have got you well cornered; for God was the Word. And if God became flesh, why then would you bite into my trap, because I say, God's flesh, God's body, and God's blood, eh?

Herm. We too believe that God was the Word; but would you understand from this that the living God (of whom Christ is the Son) Himself became flesh? That would certainly be contrary to the entire holy Scriptures.

Fr. Corn. Yet Christ says, John 10, verse 30: "I and my Father are one." Again, John 14, verse 9: "He who has seen me has seen the Father." Bah, where are you now, eh?

Herm. Christ also says (John 17, verses 21 to 23): "That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me. And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one." Again (Acts 4, verse 32): "The multitude of those who believed were of one heart and of one soul." Again, Paul to the Galatians (chapter 3, verse 8) says: [n968-4] "For you are all one in Christ Jesus." Again (Ephesians 5, verses 31 and 32): "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery."

Fr. Corn. Tush, tush, you have preached enough; for all this you have drawn from the venomous breasts of Erasmus. But answer me, why Christ says: "He who has seen me has seen the Father," see.

Herm. Christ also says, John 6, verse 46: "Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is of the Father, he has seen the Father." Again, John 1, verse 18: "No man has seen God at any time." Again, John 14, verse 28: "For my Father is greater than I." Again, Mark 13, verse 32: "But of that day and that hour no man knows, no, not the angels who are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." From this it is sufficiently shown that the Father Himself did not become flesh.

Fr. Corn. Bah, this you need not teach me; for I say myself that Christ, the second person in the Godhead, or of the holy Trinity, became man, whom you will not call God; do you understand this, you accursed Trinitarian that you are?

Herm. I call Him the Son of the living God, as Peter called Him (Matthew 16, verse 16), and Lord, as the apostles call Him.

Fr. Corn. O you accursed Trinitarian, I could jump out of my skin for anger, that I could.

Herm. Then you must jump out of your skin, when in the second chapter of the Acts of the Apostles (verse 22) you read that Peter calls Him but a man of God, saying: "Jesus of Nazareth, a man* approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him." Again, in the same chapter (verse 32): "This Jesus God has raised up." Again, in the third chapter (verse 15): "Whom God has raised from the dead." Again, in Acts 4, verse 10: "Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead." Again, Paul (Acts 17, verse 31) says: "Because he has appointed a day, in which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he has ordained; of which he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead."

Fr. Corn. Yes, yes, tush, tush, tush, bah! These are the same arguments which this damned Erasmus prefers, in his book de modo orandi, and in Apologia ad Episcopum Hispalensem, Alphonsum Mauracum. But you Trinitarian, if you will call Christ only the Son of God, you do not esteem Him better than Adam; for Luke says in his third chapter that Adam also was the son of God. Bah! See once with what we are tormented.

Herm. [n968-2] Far be it from us that we should not esteem Christ better than Adam; for because we believe that the body of Christ is not earthy of the earth, as was Adam the first man, but that He is a heavenly man, as Paul writes in the fifteenth chapter of his first epistle to the Corinthians; therefore we are put to death by you; hence you yourselves do not esteem Him better than Adam.

Fr. Corn. O you accursed Trinitarian, how the devil does wag your tongue. Bah, if you will not believe that Christ is truly man, and if you will also not believe that He is the true God, what * * * is He then?

Herm. Do not talk so unbecomingly; for Christ is no devil, but He is the true Son of God, as John writes in the fifth chapter of his first epistle; and He is also a true man, as Paul writes in the fifth chapter of his epistle to the Romans.

Fr. Corn. Bah, but does not Saint John in the same chapter say of the Son: "This is the true God;" eh?

Herm. No, for John says: "We know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding, that we may know the true God, and that we should be in his true Son. This is the true God, and eternal life." By this John means this true God whom the Son taught us to know.

Fr. Corn. Bah, you Trinitarian; now it occurs to me that Saint John says in the same chapter: "There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one." Bah, here you are, soundly cornered, poor Trinitarian that you are.

Herm. I have often heard it said that Erasmus in his Annotations charges you papists with having interpolated these words, and that they are not contained in the Greek text, even as you people have taken out and added many other things in the holy Scriptures.

Fr. Corn. Bah, may the fire of hell forever burn and torment you with your devilish, damned, accursed heretic Erasmus. Bah, I could tear my cap for anger, that I could.

Herm. Why then do you not tear your cap, when you read that Greek text yourself and see that this is not contained in it?

Fr. Corn. Bah, my lords, what do you think of this? Am I wrong in so sharply attacking in my sermons this damned heretic, this wicked Trinitarian Erasmus? For it is true, this he writes; indeed, what is still worse, in his Annotations to the fourth chapter of Saint Luke he has written that a very great and strange corruption has been wrought in the holy Scriptures in the Greek and Latin copies, that sometimes something is added and interpolated and sometimes something taken away, omitted, and erased, on account of the heretics; indeed, that the marginal notes which were now and then written by one or the other have all been foisted into the text. My lords, is it not a fine thing?

Recorder. Ah, Father Cornelis, we are no theologians; we do not understand these things.

Fr. Corn. Indeed? Bah, I believe it; but this Trinitarian would certainly understand it very well, as you hear, since he charges us with it. Bah, he would dare charge us Catholics, with his archheretic, this wicked Erasmus, that in the ninth chapter of Romans, where Paul says: "Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came;" we have interpolated: "Who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen." For this accursed Erasmus writes that he has great doubts with regard to this clause: "Qui est benedictus in saecula. Amen." Or these words are to be interpreted and understood as a thanksgiving to God the Father; thus, "Christ, and so on, who is over all. God be blessed forever. Amen." "Otherwise," he writes; "I have great doubts whether this clause has not been interpolated, as I find also in some other texts that they have added similar clauses for the conclusion of discourses, as, Tu autem Domine, and so on; Gloria Patri et Filio, and so on, as their lessons and prayers are all concluded with such clauses." But as regards the words of Saint Thomas, in the twentieth chapter of Saint John's gospel, you have no way of escape; for there Saint Thomas said to Christ: "My Lord and my God." Bah, to this he does not reply; indeed, with this he is soundly cornered. Nevertheless, he spitefully writes with regard to this: "This is the first and last passage in the Scriptures where Christ is called God." Bah, but you Trinitarian, let us hear what you can say to this.

Herm. I reply to this, that Thomas said very well here; for David says in the eighty-second Psalm: "I have said, You are gods; and all of you are children of the Most High." Christ Himself also quotes these words in the tenth chapter of John. When the Jews took up stones to stone Him, because He had said, "I and the Father are one," Jesus answered them: "I have shown you many good works from my Father; for which of those works do you stone me? The Jews answered him, saying: For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because you, being a man, make yourself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods. If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken; do you say of him, whom the Father has sanctified, and sent into the world, You blaspheme, because I said, I am the Son of God?" Again, Exodus 22, verses 8 and 9: "If the thief is not found, then the master of the house shall be brought to the gods, and so on. The cause of both parties shall come before the gods; and whom the gods shall condemn, he shall pay double to his neighbor."

Fr. Corn. Bah, but tell me without many words, why Christ did not say to Saint Thomas: "Stay: I am not your God?" let us hear.

Herm. In regard to this, my previous answer, John, chapter 10, and David in Psalm 82, will serve; but answer me, why Christ did not reply to these words of Thomas: "Upon this rock I will build my church," as He said, Matthew 16, verse 18, when Peter answered Him: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God?" He also did not say to Thomas: "Flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father who is in heaven." Why also does Christ, John 20, verse 17, say to His disciples: "I ascend to my Father and your Father; and to my God, and your God? Again, Matthew 27, verse 46: " My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Fr. Corn. Tush, tush, you Trinitarian. Bah, from this would probably follow diabolical arguments which would transcend all human comprehension. Ah, bah, is Christ not truly God? Why then do we call His blessed mother the mother of God, eh?

Herm. Because you will nowhere follow the holy Scriptures, but would call everything by a contrary and different name; for the holy Scriptures call her the mother of Jesus, as in the first chapter of the Acts of the Apostles, in the nineteenth chapter of John, and in many other places of holy Scripture, where she is not once called the mother of God.

Fr. Corn. Indeed? Bah, do you think that we Catholics pay so much regard to the naked, bare, meager Scriptures? Ah, bah, the worthy, holy council of Nice has ordained and decreed that she should be called the mother of God. What do you say to this?

Herm. Do you not hold the last council of Trent to be of as great authenticity, dignity, and holiness as the council of Nice?

Fr. Corn. Yes, in truth, and should we not? Ah, bah, the Holy Ghost taught and spoke just as well through the fathers in the worthy council of Trent as through the fathers in the council of Nice. Bah, what need is there of asking this question? Have you nothing else to ask me? Bah, I well perceive that you would gladly drop the subject concerning the mother of God.

Herm. I had to ask this in order to hear your confession in regard to it; for now I know by the council of Trent all the other councils, because I have in my time heard and seen how things went at the former council, which mocks and puts to shame all previous councils.

Fr. Corn. O you hellish, devilish, accursed Trinitarian, you blaspheme the Holy Ghost. It is a wonder that we do not all together with you sink into the earth. My lords, I am absolutely afraid to speak any longer with this Beelzebubian Anabaptist, Sacramentarian and Trinitarian, and enemy of the mother of God, that I am.

Recorder. Can you not keep still in regard to these things, Herman, as we requested of you?

Herm. I do not blaspheme the Holy Ghost, nor am I an enemy of the mother of Christ.

Fr. Corn. Bah, do you not blaspheme the Holy Ghost, when you ridicule, vilify and deride the worthy council of Trent, and all the previous holy councils, and will not call the worthy, holy, blessed virgin Mary the mother of God, as the holy council of Nice teaches and commands us to do? Bah, are you not then a blasphemer of the Holy Ghost, and an enemy of the mother of God, eh?

Herm. You papists were so presumptuous in your council of Nice, that you dared call the mother of Jesus Christ the mother of God, whom neither the apostles nor the evangelists dared call the mother of the Son of God.

Fr. Corn. O you damned, devilish Anabaptist, you hellish Trinitarian, Sacramentarian and deadly enemy of the blessed mother of God, we will call her the mother of God in spite of your teeth, and she is too the mother of God. Yes, she is the mother of God, that she is!

Herm. You said yourself that there are three persons in the holy Trinity, the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, and that these three persons are but one true God. If Mary then is the mother of this true God, then she is just as well the mother of the Father and of the Holy Ghost, and of the Son.

Fr. Corn. O you devilish heretic, I have proved to you from the symbol of Athanasius, that the Father is God, and that the Son is God, and that the Holy Ghost is God, and that there are nevertheless not three gods, but that these three are one true, inseparable God, see.

Herm. If these three are not each a distinct, separate God, but if the three are but one true inseparable God, and if Mary is the mother of God, then she must be the mother of all three, or the three must each be a separate God. Where are you now with your council of Nice?

Fr. Corn. Bah, may the fire of hell burn you, you wicked, evil, vile, false, crafty Trinitarian; the devil wags your accursed tongue. Bah, you would drive a hundred thousand doctors of divinity mad and crazy. Jesus, Jesus, worthy mother of God, how you are reviled, despised and rejected by this hellish devil's brood. But in good faith, how would you have her called Maeyken Timmermans,* as you call her in your hellish, devilish sermons in the Gruthuysbosch, eh? [n968-5]

Herm. We call her the mother of Jesus, as she is called in the Scriptures. And how can you say that we revile, despise and reject her?

Fr. Corn. O you accursed Anabaptist, I will drop this, that you will not call her the mother of God. But is this not odious reviling, despising and rejecting, that your archheretic, Menno Simons, writes that Christ did not assume the sinful earthly seed of Mary, but that He came with flesh and blood, with skin and hair, from heaven, into Mary, and thus became man, and that He merely passed through her body, as water through a sieve, or through a spout? Bah, is this not reviling, blaspheming, despising and rejecting?

Herm. You do not understand what Menno Simons writes; for what you here say cannot be found in his writings; but he shows with many Scriptures that the Word became flesh (as John writes in his first chapter), and not the seed of Mary.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah, was Christ then not born of the seed of David according to the promise, which seed He assumed in the blessed virgin Mary, of her most pure blood, and of that became flesh and man, eh?

Herm. That Christ was born of the seed of David (as regards the generation of which He was born) we well believe; but the angel said to Joseph

"That which is begotten in her is of the Holy Ghost," Matthew 1, verse 20. Again, John 16, verse 28, Christ Himself says: "I came forth from the Father, and have come into the world."

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah, Christ says this of His divinity, that the same proceeded, and came into the world from the Father, and not from His humanity, you stupid Anabaptist.

Herm. Why then did Christ say, John 6, verse 62: "What if you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" Again, John 3, verse 13: "No man has ascended up to heaven, but he who came down from heaven, even the Son of man." Again, Paul says, Ephesians 4, verses 9 and 10: "That he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is the same also who ascended up far above all heavens."

Fr. Corn. Bah, you stupid Anabaptist, did Christ then come from heaven into Mary with flesh and blood, with skin and hair, entrails and all, as He ascended up to heaven? Bah, what do you say of this, you great, stupid, awkward ass?

Herm. I do not say this; but I say that the Word came from heaven, and became flesh in Mary, as John writes in his first chapter.

Fr. Corn. And we Catholics say that the most pure blood of Mary became flesh, in spite of your miserable teeth, see.

Herm. This defiance to my teeth is a small matter; but this defiance to the holy Scriptures is a great blasphemy.

Fr. Corn. Ha, you damned Anabaptist, I do not blaspheme the holy Scriptures; but you revile the holy, blessed, pure virgin Mary. Bah, I am surprised that you do not say that she conceived her son Christ of her husband Joseph, as your hedgepreachers preach in the Gruthuysbosch; is it not a fine thing?

Herm. You wrong us greatly, that you say this of us; for we believe as Matthew writes in his first chapter: "Joseph took his wife, and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn son."

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah! Did Joseph know her afterwards, eh?

Herm. It does not matter to me whether he knew her afterwards or not.

Fr. Corn. Indeed? And do you then not believe in the perpetual virginity of the blessed virgin Mary? Let us hear now.

Herm. We find nothing said in the Scriptures concerning her perpetual virginity.

Fr. Corn. Bah, this accursed Anabaptist would pester me with the Scriptures. Will you then positively believe nothing else but what is contained in the holy Scriptures? Bah, hence it comes that you thus despise, reject and revile the worthy mother of God, and imagine, indeed, teach and believe that she did the carnal works of the married state with Joseph her husband, just as well as your filthy, sinful wives do with you, and that she had many children by Joseph her husband; hah, is this not a fine thing?

Herm. And if she had done the work of the married state with her husband Joseph, and brought forth more children (which is ordained and commanded of God, Genesis 1, and is a blessing) would she thereby have sinned?

Fr. Corn. Bah, God blessed Adam and Eve, and said: "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth," before they transgressed the commandment; but they did not continue in the blessing, but transgressed the commandment of God, and thereby the work of marriage became sin to them; bah, now you are cornered.

Herm. You are cornered yourself; for in Genesis 9, verse 1, it is written: "God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them: Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth." Again, the prophet Jeremiah, in the twenty-ninth chapter, says: "Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Take wives, and have sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons, and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters; that you may be increased."

Fr. Corn. Bah, tush, tush, you have talked enough; bah, hear how much talk there is in this miserable Anabaptist. Bah, now that I hear you talk, I will believe that you Anabaptists openly and presumptuously preach out there in the Gruthuysbosch that Maeyken Timmermans, as regards the work of marriage, was not a hair better than your filthy, unchaste, carnal wives are. Indeed, in order utterly to loose the marriage bond, and to show that women may have various husbands, you wicked Anabaptists dare to preach and teach that Mary had children by many different husbands, like your wives, whom you have in common — is this not a fine thing?

Herm. Of such things as you say here I never once heard our teachers speak when they preached the Word; but it may sometimes have been asked among us whether the brothers and sisters of Christ, of whom the holy Scriptures make mention, Matthew 13; Mark 6, and so on, were natural children by Joseph or Mary.

Fr. Corn. O you accursed Anabaptist, the holy Scriptures call some apostles, such as Saint James, Saint Simon, Saint Judas, the Lord's brothers, who were merely His cousins, you stupid Anabaptists that you are.

Herm. Yet, in the first chapter of Acts, it is written (after the eleven apostles are listed)

"These all continued with one accord in prayer [and supplication], with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers." Nevertheless, I will not insist on, or maintain, that Mary the mother of Jesus gave birth to still other children.

Fr. Corn. Bah, but when you Anabaptists are assembled in the Gruthuysbosch, you will maintain it, and other things about her yet that are still much more wicked and abominable; for I know it well, that I do.

Herm. We are greatly slandered, just as you also often stand in your pulpit and preach about us whatever you please.

Fr. Corn. Indeed, do any Anabaptists then sometimes come to hear me preach, eh?

Herm. Though we do not hear you preach ourselves, yet we are told that you stand in your pulpit and preach that the Calvinists and Anabaptists teach and preach that Mary the mother of Christ was a filthy whore, for which you are censured by learned men (in letters which they write to you), for how you slander us by this.

Fr. Corn. Bah, * * * you miserable Anabaptist * * * for such * * * letters I do not care — do you understand this? And do you know nothing else to say? Bah, you do not answer me about having the women in common: bah, you Anabaptists have certainly gone about it very cunningly, that you have the women and maidens in common; for by this you gain such a great number of adherents for your Anabaptism. Bah, but show me once from the Scriptures that the women and maidens are to be had in common, as you Anabaptists do in your devil's supper; bah, see; let us hear whether you will be able to show me this.

Herm. No; for I could show this to you just as little as you can show me from the holy Scriptures that the women and maidens must be scourged, as you do in your secret disciplining. But you have certainly well practiced the secret disciplining, or scourging, of the maidens and women, for by this you gain such a great retinue of devotaries.

Fr. Corn. Bah, I would rather * * * than reply to all your talk; but answer my question.

Herm. All such barefaced lies, as that we have the women and maidens in common, I do not think worthy of an answer.

Fr. Corn. Ah, bah! Is it a barefaced lie, that you Anabaptists have the women in common? Why then does all the world speak of it, and why then is it printed in so many books, which are written against you by us Catholics, and which I read daily? Fie, you adulterers! Fie, you dishonorers of marriage!

Herm. All that are of the world are liars; hence you and your Catholics cannot be believed.

Fr. Corn. Ah, am I of the world, * * * you accursed, bewitched, damned Anabaptist that you are. Bah, you stupid beast, and do you not see that I am spiritual? But you show worldly works by having all the women in common; but I have vowed chastity; do you understand this, you dishonorer of marriage that you are?

Herm. We do not dishonor marriage; but if you are spiritual, and have vowed chastity, then it is surprising that you take your delight in this carnal, unclean, secret disciplining, or scourging, of the women.

Fr. Corn. O you devilish Anabaptist and dishonorer of marriage, I could almost fly into your eyes or into your mouth; bah, what do you understand about my secret disciplining, which I employ with my devotaries? Bah, you are filthy, carnal, unchaste, voluptuous rogues, that you thus use the women in common, like dogs. Yes, you damned dishonorers of marriage are nothing more than rotten, stinking dogs, carrions; for in this respect you go about it like dogs, though you would deny it before us; bah, fie, fie! Shame upon you * * * Bah, if I cannot prevail upon you with kindness, I must try whether I can do it with severity; see now.

Clerk of the criminal court. Ah, father Cornelis, do be modest and keep your temper.

Recorder. Yes, talk together with kind, calm words; for it seems that you will go on quarreling and bickering here like harlots.

Fr. Corn. Bah, my lords, and may I not accuse him of what is true? I suppose so. Did you not hear yourselves yesterday, that that * * * bishop of the Anabaptists at first also wanted to deny everything; but when he saw that I was so well acquainted with the matter, he acknowledged that there were some among them who taught and practiced these things in secret, and when I soundly berated and convicted him with plain and conclusive arguments, he denied it no longer. Bah, why then should I not also have liberty to accuse and convict this one of it? Have I not come here to instruct and convert him? I think I have. See what we are tormented with. Why does he deny a matter which is true? * * * One may certainly talk here, I suppose?

Herm. Then I may also reply to you that this matter is not true, because these things are lies; and I presume that Jacob, my fellow brother, replied against it well.

Fr. Corn. Yes, until I told him that the Anabaptists at Amsterdam and elsewhere in Holland ran stark naked through the streets, men, women, boys and maidens, and said to one another: "My spirit desires your flesh." Bah! Was this not a fine thing, eh?

Herm. No, this was not a fine thing; and hence we never regarded such as our brothers and sisters.

Fr. Corn. Bah! Why would you deny it so strongly; for it is well enough known that you Anabaptists do not regard the sacrament of marriage at all, because for a very little matter you loose and sever the marriage bond.

Herm. Since you bring so many untrue charges against us in regard to our marriage, I must ask you something about marriage that concerns you, and which is certainly no lie, for Paul writes this to Timothy, in the fourth chapter (first epistle): "Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God has created to be received with thanksgiving."

Fr. Corn. Tush, tush, hold your tongue; for we do not want any more preaching here; bah, be gone, get away from here. * * *

Herm. If I could be gone from here I would no longer listen to your blasphemies and lies.

Fr. Corn. Ah, you accursed, hardened, petrified Anabaptist, how the devils in hell (where you will shortly go) will sit in your accursed mouth, with burning pitch, brimstone, tar, and Greek fire; just wait.

Herm. No; but I shall go under the altar which John saw in his Apocalypse, as is written in the sixth chapter, to the souls of those who were slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held; who cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

Fr. Corn. Yes, the devil's martyr you will be. * * * But this preaching would probably last all night; hence I am going to my convent, and will let you preach as long as you like, you damned, accursed Anabaptist, Sacramentarian, Trinitarian, and marriage dishonorer that you are; see.

In the meantime one of the two martyrs mentioned above, namely, Jacob de Roore, or the chandler, while imprisoned, wrote several letters filled with holy and divine things, which we consider it profitable to communicate to the reader; they are the following: