Confession of Jacques d'Auchy, Made before the Commissary and the Inquisitor

When I had been in prison ten weeks, my first examination took place. On the third day of January in the year 1558, reckoning the beginning of the year from New Year's Day, the jailer came to me in the afternoon, saying that I had to appear before the commissary, to be examined concerning my faith. I was ready with a glad heart, and went there with the jailer. When I entered the room where the commissary sat, I humbly greeted him. He returned my greeting, and said: "Jacques, is your name Jacques d'Auchy?"

Jacques. "Yes, my lord."

Commissary. [n809-2] "Jacques, I have come here commissioned by the king and the procurator general, to examine you concerning the articles of faith."

Jacques. "Well, my lord, let it be done then in the name of the Lord."

After we had had many words together about the faith, he began to ask me about the place of my birth, my residence, and my life from my youth up to the present time; all of which I confessed to him. Then I was led back to prison by the jailer.

In the afternoon of the next day, namely the fourth of January of the same year, I was again brought before the same commissary. As I stood before him, he began to revile, abuse and blaspheme the pastors and the flock of Christ, saying: "Is it not a pity that we let ourselves be so deceived?"

Jacques. "Yes, my lord."

Commissary. "I speak of you and others, who forsake our mother the holy church, and let yourselves be deceived by a set of mischievous idlers and vagabonds."

Jacques. "I have not let myself be deceived by such people."

Commissary. "No! When you believe such accursed villains and beggars as Menno, Leenaert, Henderick van Vreden, Frans de Kuyper, Jelis of Aix la Chapelle, and other such rascals, and forsake us and the true Word of God, do you not then let yourselves be deceived?"

Jacques. "I have not forsaken the Word of God; for my faith is founded upon the Word of God, and not upon men, nor upon the doctrines of men, since the prophet Jeremiah exclaims: 'Cursed is the man who trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm.' Jeremiah 17, verse 5."

A little after this the commissary cried out, saying: "O the miscreants, such as Menno and Leenaert, how many have they deceived and led to all the devils and into perdition."

Jacques. "My lord, I beg you not to say such words; for it would be difficult and hard for you to prove that they are such as you claim them to be." And again: "They have not deceived, but have clearly taught the Word of God. And I do not believe that those who have believed in the Word of God will go into perdition; but the Lord will judge all things well."

Commissary. "I will not dispute; for I myself receive instruction from those who are taught in the holy church. But I know well the character of you people, and of your doctrine: if you only had the power, you would gladly cut our throats, which, as has been seen, you people have done at Munster, Amsterdam, and other places."

Jacques. "O my lord, do not say such words against your own conscience; for I am sure that you know much better, since you have been in the council here for twenty years, as you say (this he had told me before); so it seems to me that you know us better. For if we had such wicked hearts as to intend to murder people, we would not deliver ourselves into your hands like this; for if we were only willing to speak against our conscience, and to hide the truth from you, you would have no power over us, since you can find no one who can truthfully accuse us of having wronged or injured anyone."

Commissary. "Where then do so many sects and heresies come from? Where does so much uproar and mutiny spring from?"

Jacques. "As for the sects and heresies that are in the world, such as those of Munster or Amsterdam, or elsewhere, we have in no way fellowship or part with their works, nor with their doctrines, but we regard them as doctrines of devils. All these things cannot keep the truth from being truth, or Christians from being true Christians, any more than could all the sects and heresies that in the days of the apostles were round about them, and had some semblance of the Word of God."

After these and many other words which we had together, he began to grow milder in his manner, and said to me: "You must not study so high, but let yourself be instructed by those who are more learned and wise than you, and you must believe in the Word of God."

Jacques. "O my lord, how should I not believe in the Word of God? For it is for this same Word that I am imprisoned here, and now stand before you to give answer concerning it."

Commissary. "You are not imprisoned for the Word of God, but for your evil deeds."

Jacques. "My lord, have you heard anyone complain that I wronged or injured him in any way?"

Commissary. "No; I have not heard that any complaint has been made against you."

Jacques. "The Lord be praised, that it is not for my iniquity, but for the testimony of the true faith."

Commissary. "Not so; but for your crimes, since you have offended against his Imperial Majesty, and transgressed the command of the king our lord."

Jacques. "If I have transgressed the king's command, it is a small matter, since I have fulfilled the command of that King who is the true God and eternal King."

Commissary. "You have also transgressed the command of God, and of our mother the holy church."

Jacques. "My lord, you cannot prove to me by the holy Scriptures, nor can anyone else, that in this I have transgressed God's command."

Commissary. "It shall be proved to you. Well then, let us begin to finish the articles in which I have been charged to examine you."

We had many more words, which it would take me too long to relate here, besides that I do not remember them well. The commissary was somewhat discouraged, and listened attentively to whatever I wished to say.

Then he asked me when I came to Emden, and where I had taken up residence, and whether I had been directed to these people. I answered

"Yes." Commissary. "Who directed you?" Jacques. "A good friend." Commissary. "In whose house were you?" Jacques. "I do not know the house in which I was." Commissary. "Who was it that brought you to Leenaert?" Jacques. "They were men and youths, women and maidens." Commissary. "What were their names?" Jacques. "As to their surnames, I would have had much to do, to know them all by their names and surnames, since I was not there long enough to learn them all." Commissary. "When you came into the house, where was Leenaert? What did he preach about?" Jacques. "He preached the pure Word of God." Commissary. "About what, and about which articles did he preach?" Jacques. "He taught amendment of life, and that we must put off the old man, and put on the new; he forcibly showed by the Scriptures that those who walk after the flesh, and after their lusts, have no part in the kingdom of God." Commissary. "Did he not speak of some other things?" Jacques. "My lord, I would have much to do, to retain it all, even as it would cost you, I think, much trouble and labor to retain a sermon that was preached eighteen months or two years ago." Commissary. "Did you there receive your second baptism?" Jacques. "I have received only one baptism, and that according to the ordinance of Christ." Commissary. "Did you not also receive a baptism in your infancy?" Jacques. "I do not know what was done to me in my infancy; I have no remembrance of it." Commissary. "Did not your father or your mother tell you that you were baptized, and did you not have sponsors?" Jacques. "Yes, I think they told me, and I have also called some persons godfather and godmother, but this was not in accordance with the Scriptures." Commissary. "Well, was that not enough? Have you besides this received something more from Leenaert, namely, water or baptism according to your notion?" Jacques. "I received from him baptism according to the Word of God." Commissary. "Do you not consider good the baptism which you received in your infancy?" Jacques. "Had I considered it good, and a baptism, I would not have received another; for it is written that there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism, and not many baptisms." Ephesians 4, verse 5. Commissary. "Did you receive the baptism which Leenaert administered to you in the house in which you were assembled?" Jacques. "Yes." Commissary. "Was it after or before preaching?" Jacques. "After preaching." Commissary. "Did he not speak of baptism?" Jacques. "Yes, and he showed by the holy Scriptures what it was, and what baptism signified; he humbly admonished the applicants for baptism to observe well and take good heed what they accepted, and showed the cross and persecution which come to those who have come so far; and many other demonstrations from the holy Scriptures." Commissary. "Were you not afraid of the decree of the Emperor?" Jacques. "No; neither am I now." Commissary. "Jacques, it will go hard with you, unless you submit to mercy for your misdeed." Jacques. "My lord, I expect mercy from the Lord; but I am not aware that I have offended against the Emperor or the king, so that I should look for mercy. And if the decree is contrary to the Word of God, it does not appear to me that in fulfilling the command of God I offend against anyone, whoever he may be!" Commissary. "Jacques, Jacques, think what the decree says." Jacques. "My lord, I know well that it has more authority in this world than the Word of God, to put to death those who believe on His name and depart from unrighteousness, as is written that it should be so. (Isaiah 59, verse 15; Matthew 10, verse 17). But what will it mean when you have done with me according to the decree, and have put me to death? You will have nothing but a vile and mortal body, which is subject to corruption; but as for the soul, you cannot touch it, and when you appear before God's judgment, you will know what you have done." Matthew 10, verse 28. Commissary. "Jacques, I do not seek your death, God knows; I would be sorry to see you suffer in the least." Jacques. "My lord, this will be seen in the end. How is it then that you thus shed innocent blood here, when you do not understand the faith, as you have told me? Why do you not decree then that those who cannot recognize your faith to be true and good be banished from the country, keeping their life and property, as is done throughout Germany, and also in Oostland,* which countries do not judge the Word of God, to shed blood?" [n809-4]

After many other words he asked: "What do you think and believe of the sacrament of the altar?" Jacques. "Do you mean the breaking of bread?" Commissary. "Yes." Jacques. "I confess and believe as Christ ordained it, as the apostles practiced it, and as Paul writes concerning it to the Corinthians." Commissary. "How do you understand it?" Jacques. "Just as it is written; I do not want to comment on the Word of God." This satisfied him, and he wrote it down that way on his paper. Commissary. "What do you think of the mass, confession, and absolution of the priest?" Jacques. "As regards the mass, I do not know it, nor do the Scriptures; I have never read this name in the Word of God." Commissary. "What shall I write then in regard to this?" Jacques. "I do not know; whatever you please, my lord." Commissary. "Will you not confess simply that you believe in the ordinances of the true and holy church, according to the teaching of the Scriptures, and as a good Christian is bound to believe?" Jacques. "Yes, my lord, with all my heart." He wrote this down. Commissary. "Who were your instructors in this doctrine, and with whom did you converse in the beginning, and in what place?" Jacques. "I had my conversation at Antwerp, speaking of the Scriptures with many, but my principal instruction and foundations I derived from reading the holy Word of the Lord." He also wrote this down.

Commissary. "Now see, here is an important article, namely, whether you have not been a minister, or a deacon over the poor, or an exhorter, or have held some other office in the assemblies of the brothers?" This was written on his paper, as well as I could make out or see. At first I did not know what he meant by calling this so important an article. I then answered: "No; I do not feel myself qualified for it, but am a humble member in the congregation." Commissary. "Were you never in a meeting before you received baptism?" Jacques. "Yes, two or three times at least." Commissary. "In what place was it, and in what houses?" Jacques. "As regards the houses, I do not know to whom they belong." Commissary. "What kind of houses were they, large or small?" Jacques. "We assemble wherever we best can, as opportunity offers itself, and I remember being in very poor little houses that resembled stables more than houses." So he wrote this down on his paper. Commissary. "Did you also attend the meeting with the brothers after you received baptism?" Jacques. "My lord, this answers for itself; you may well suppose that if I was there before, I was there still more afterward." Commissary. "Is your wife of the same doctrine as you are, and is she also rebaptized?" Jacques. "I have enough to do to answer for myself without answering for my wife; and if she were here she could answer for herself; but nevertheless, I regard her as a woman that fears the Lord." This satisfied him.

On Saturday morning, the 8th of January of the said year 1558, I was brought into the same room, before the inquisitor, who had lately been appointed here by the King of Spain, with full power from him to bind or to loose, to release or to put to death. When I came before him, I humbly saluted him; he returned my salutation and said to me: "Jacques, I am very glad of one thing, namely, at what the procurator general has told me, that you are ready to confess your guilt if it can be proved to you by the Scriptures that you have transgressed the commandment of God and are in error. Are you still of the same intention, and will you accept the Scriptures?" Jacques. "Yes; and I am ready to listen to all good instruction according to the Word of God." He had the confession which I had made before the commissary, and asked me: "Will you still confess that you received baptism from Leenaert?" Jacques. "My word is not yes and no, but yes, yes; and as I confessed, so I still confess openly." Inquisitor. "Was not the baptism you received in your infancy enough for you, without receiving another?" Jacques. "I do not regard the baptism which I received in my infancy as baptism according to the Word and ordinance of God." Inquisitor. "I shall prove it to you; but do you not believe that infants are born in original sin?" Jacques. "David indeed says that he was conceived in sin, just as all infants are; but sin is not imputed to them, since Christ has died to take away sin, as Paul testifies everywhere in his epistles. And as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, so grace has abounded through Jesus Christ." Romans 5, verses 12 and 15. Inquisitor. "How are infants purified, if it is not done through baptism?" Jacques. "They are purified through the blood of Christ, since He is the Lamb which takes away the sin of the world." Inquisitor. "How are they purified from original sin?" Jacques. "My lord, I have told you, namely, through the blood of the Son of God, who died for us when we were still enemies, and unbelieving." Inquisitor. "Do you not believe that infants bear their sin from Adam, until they are purified through baptism?"

Jacques. "This must be proved to me by the Scriptures; I believe the word of the prophet, who says: 'The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; but the soul that sins, it shall die.'" Ezekiel 18, verse 20. Inquisitor. "It is not to be understood that way; but the child is impure until it has received baptism." Jacques. "Are the infants purified through the external sign of the water?" Inquisitor. "No; but they must be purified with water, and then with the Holy Ghost." Jacques. "Which washing precedes, the external or the internal?" Inquisitor. "The external; and after these words: 'In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost' have been spoken, they are purified internally." Jacques. "My lord, you say this without warrant of Scripture; for Christ says that those are hypocrites who first make clean the outside; but that first what is within shall be cleansed, and the outside will be clean also." Matthew 23, verses 25 and 26. Inquisitor. "You err, and do not understand the Scriptures, and have let yourself be deceived by a set of vagabonds." Jacques. "My lord, I do not rely upon men; but it has not been given me to understand it differently, and men cannot give me the faith; for it is written in the prophets

'They shall all be taught of God.' Isaiah 54, verse 13. And Jesus Christ says that no one can come to Him except it be given him of the Father. John 6, verse 44. But now, my lord, prove to me exclusively by the Scriptures that the baptism of little infants is a planting and ordinance of God, and that it was practiced by the apostles, and I shall believe it."

Inquisitor. "The ordinance was made by Jesus Christ, when He said: 'Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'" John 3, verse 5. Jacques. "Christ is not speaking to infants, but to a doctor in the law; nor does He speak of little infants that have just been born; for He says afterward in the same chapter: 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again. The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from, or where it goes: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit.'" Verses 6 to 8.

After I had read this in his German testament, printed at Zurich, I said: "My lord, if the external baptism of infants is the new birth, we know where it comes from, for we can see it with our eyes." Inquisitor. "How do you understand it then?" Jacques. "I understand it to be the new birth of him that was in the old Adam, in the body of sin; that we must put him off, and mortify and crucify the body of sin, together with all its lusts and affections, in order to be born again to newness of life, after the new man Christ Jesus, as Paul testifies at length." Inquisitor. "This is to be understood with reference to adult persons; but the little infants that are impure must be cleansed with water, that they may obtain salvation." Jacques. "What do you believe concerning infants that do not receive baptism here, according to the faith which you hold, namely, from the pope?" Inquisitor. "They all go to the devils." Jacques. "O my lord, it is written: 'If you judge, judge righteously.' And Christ says: 'With what judgment you judge, you shall be judged.' Matthew 7, verse 2. You condemn innocent infants, even though Christ says that theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18, verse 3. Inquisitor. "Those children were baptized, or at least had received circumcision, which served them instead of baptism." Jacques. "The Scripture does not state that they were circumcised, and you cannot show whether they were Jewish or Gentile children." Inquisitor. "The inhabitants of Jerusalem and thereabouts in Judea were all Jews." Jacques. "Luke makes a different statement, saying (Acts 2, verse 5) that at Jerusalem, in Judea, every kind of tongue under heaven was represented." Inquisitor. "Is it not a sad thing of you people, that you err in the Scriptures in this way? Does not Paul say that He [Christ] cleansed His church with the washing of water?" Jacques. "Paul says: 'With the washing of water by the word.' Ephesians 5, verse 26. Now then, can you cleanse infants by the Word? or only by the washing of water? for they cannot believe the Word." Inquisitor. "Then they are damned, since they do not believe." Jacques. "Do not speak so; for they are innocent and poor in spirit, and to such belongs the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5, verse 3. He said as before: "First of all they must be purified by water baptism, in order to attain salvation." Jacques. "The apostle Peter clearly declares that as the ark which Noah had made preserved from death and the wrath of God those who had forsaken the company of the wicked and of the world, and had entered into it, so baptism is to us for salvation; but the apostle does not at all esteem the baptism which takes away the filth of the flesh, unless there be a good testimony of a good conscience before God; and I do not believe that infants have the testimony of a good conscience, since they know neither good nor evil." First Peter 3, verse 21.

He made no reply to this, but looked at me sharply, and after a few moments said: "Is it Calvin who writes: 'Attestation (that is, testimony) of a good conscience?' These are the false prophets who deceive you, people; but the genuine text does not read so." Jacques. "I am not imprisoned for the doctrine of Calvin." I begged him again and again to let me read in his book how the apostle wrote it, namely, in his own testament, which he had before him, or in his Latin Bible, which was of very small size, and was translated and printed by Rombertus Stephanus at Paris. But however much I begged him, he would not let me read; so I said to him: "My lord, you ought not to prevent me from proving the word, since you contradict it." After more words he said to me: "Since you will not believe in the holy teachers, such as Saint Ambrose and Saint Augustine (and a host of other saints whom he named to me), and in the ordinances instituted by the holy church, what then will you believe?" Jacques. "I believe only in the ordinance of Christ; or prove to me that the apostles baptized little infants, and I will believe it."

He tried to do this from the households that were baptized, in which, he said, infants might well have been included. I replied that the Scriptures say nothing about there having been any infants there, but that they clearly prove that those households heard and believed the Word, as is written of the jailer, and also of Cornelius the centurion, and all who were of his house, who received the Holy Ghost as well as the apostles; namely, those who heard the Word. Acts 16, verse 34; Acts 10, verse 45. "So, my lord, you cannot prove to me that there were infants there." Inquisitor. "I will not insist that there were infants there, or that there were none there, since it admits of doubt; but you must believe what the fathers and the holy doctors have ordained concerning it in the church, and have practiced until the present time." Jacques. "Did those teachers institute this ordinance with a good intention; or did they institute it because it was an ordinance of God, contained in the Scriptures?" Inquisitor. "They did it according to the Word of God, with a good intention." Jacques. "My lord, you well know how strictly the people of Israel were forbidden to do anything according to their own opinion, but were only to do what the Lord commanded them. Deuteronomy 4, verse 2. For Saul was rejected by God, because he had not acted truly according to the word of the Lord which had been commanded him, but had followed his own opinion." First Samuel 15, verse 23.

After many other words that we had together, he went away from me, saying: "Jacques, I beg you to consider this matter well; for you are in error and deceived." Jacques. "I am neither in error nor deceived, and I have already considered the matter: since you cannot prove to me by the Scriptures that the baptism of infants is an ordinance of God, I do not believe it." Inquisitor. "Why do you want me to prove it, since you do not believe in the holy teachers of the Catholic church, nor their ordinance." Jacques. "My lord, it is written: 'Every plant which my heavenly Father has not planted shall be rooted up.'" Matthew 5, verse 13. After many other words he went away, saying to me: [n809-5] "Farewell, Jacques; consider the matter well and pray diligently to God." I also said good-bye to him, and said that I did indeed hope always to call upon the name of the Lord for help. Psalm 116, verse 4.

There were many other words that we had together which I have not written down, because I do not remember them well, and I was seized with an attack of fever. I have forgotten to write down his arguments by which he sought to prove that circumcision was a figure of baptism, and that therefore baptism had to be used in the same way; whereupon I proved to him by the Scriptures that circumcision was a figure of the covenant, and signified nothing but that they were included in the covenant, and were children to whom the promise belonged. Genesis 17, verse 11. But Paul shows us that he is not a Jew or a child of Abraham who is one outwardly, or according to the flesh of his seed, but he who is one in the heart; as Christ says, that they are Abraham's children who do the works of Abraham, though they are Gentiles according to the seed of the flesh. Romans 2, verses 28 and 29; John 8, verse 39. And I showed him that baptism signifies the true regeneration, just as Christ showed Nicodemus, and the putting off of the old man, in newness of life; and that therefore we had to be regenerated, and not born anew, as they would assert; and that where there was no regeneration there was no need of a sign, since this would only be mocking God. John 3, verse 5; Romans 6, verse 4. He said to me: "Shall the infants then have no part in this sacrament?" I told him that the sacraments had been left to be used in the holy church, for those who have ears to hear, and hearts to comprehend and to understand the sacraments; and not for infants. We talked much more yet on this article, and I showed him the abuse which they have in their baptism, contrary to the Scriptures, and spoke of the baptism of prudent midwives, how they regard it as good, and yet rebaptize those who have received it; I therefore told him that they were Anabaptists.

On Monday, the 10th of January of the same year, I was again brought before the same inquisitor, who, after a few words, asked me: "Have you made up your mind with regard to baptism?" Jacques. "I have nothing else to say than what I have already told you: since you cannot prove to me with the Scriptures that the baptizing of little infants is an ordinance of Christ, I do not believe in it, but hold to the baptism which Jesus Christ ordained, and which He commanded His apostles." Inquisitor. "This the false prophets have taught you, of whom the Scripture says that they shall come, and who have gone out from us." Jacques. "Such false prophets shall be known by their fruits, says the Lord. And as regards your remark that they went out from you, Paul, when at Miletus, showed to the elders of Ephesus (Acts 20, verse 30), that among them, and out from the flock, there should arise wicked men, teaching perverse things — is it not so, my lord?" Inquisitor. "Yes." Jacques. "Is not, then, my lord, the baptism which you people practice a perverse and utterly contrary thing, since Christ commanded that those be baptized who believed and were instructed and taught. And the apostles baptized only those who received the Word; but you people baptize only those who do not believe, and cannot be instructed or taught, nor receive the Word, since they are infants: which seems to me utterly contrary, and like putting the cart before the horse." Inquisitor. "This is because you are in heresy, my child, and do not believe the holy teachers; see how it will go with you. Well then, let us speak of another article." And having seen and read the confession which I had read before the commissary, as I said before, he asked me: "What do you believe of the eucharist?" Jacques. "What is that?" Inquisitor. "Of the sacrament of the altar." Jacques. "Do you mean the Lord's Supper, or breaking of bread?" Inquisitor. "Yes, it is the same thing, eucharist, sacrament or supper." Jacques. "My lord, it is not the same name; for see how the apostles named it: Luke says that they broke bread from house to house, and not the body of Christ." Acts 2, verse 46. Inquisitor. "What Luke speaks of there is the Word of God, which they distributed to everyone." Jacques. "My lord, so say also David Joris and other heretics, who abolish the breaking of bread. But observe: when Paul was at Troas and they had gathered together in the night, so that a young man fell down from the high loft, Luke says that Paul continued his speech until midnight, so that the young man fell through a window; and when they had come up again, Paul having raised him up, they broke bread and ate it — they did not eat the word; after which Paul talked till break of day, and then departed." Acts 20, verse 7.

When he heard this he looked at me sharply, and did not know what to say. "Do you not believe," said he "that when the priest has pronounced the words, our Lord is in the bread, in flesh and blood, just as the Jews had it in their hands, and crucified it?" He asked me this question very many times, and since I did not seek to dispute with him, I said

"My lord, if you can prove it to me by the Scriptures, I will believe it." He urged me, saying

"Say yes or no; what do you believe about it?" Jacques. "What the Scriptures testify about it." Inquisitor. "I ask you whether you do not believe that He is in the sacrament, in the flesh and blood, just as He was on the cross?" Seeing that he was growing heated, I delayed a little with my answer. Inquisitor. "Well, what do you say?" Jacques. "Nothing, my lord." Inquisitor. "That I hear, but why do you wait so long to answer, yes or no?" Jacques. "My lord, it is written: 'Be swift to hear and slow to speak.'" James 1, verse 19. Inquisitor. "Well then, Jacques, just say yes or no; if you believe that He is in the bread, in flesh and blood, say yes." Jacques. "My lord, if I were to say yes to you, how could I prove to you by the Scriptures that He is there in flesh and blood, after the priest has pronounced the words? For I have never read it in the Scriptures, and since I could not prove it to you, I will not say that it is so." Inquisitor. "Then you do not believe it; do I hear, no?" Jacques. "I believe nothing further about it than what the Scriptures testify; and how should He be in the bread, my lord? For it is written that He ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of His Father, until He shall have made His enemies His footstool." Mark 16, verse 19. Inquisitor. "Do you not believe that He is able to sit on the right hand of His Father, and also to be in the bread?" Jacques. "I believe that He is the Almighty; but He cannot act contrary to His word; for He must be true, and He is the only truth Himself." John 14, verse 6. Inquisitor. "Will you not believe this Scripture: 'Take, eat; this is my body, which is given for you?' Do you not believe then that it is His body?" Jacques. "Which do you believe to be His body, that which was delivered and suffered for us, and sat at the table, and spoke, or that which He held in His hand, namely, the bread? Was this delivered for us, and did the bread die on the cross for our sins? And did not the bread represent His body?" Inquisitor. "Both." Jacques. "I have never read that there are two Christs, but only one, the only Son of God." This I had often told him before. Inquisitor. "These two are but one; and the wine, too, is His blood, after the priest has pronounced the words." Jacques. "Does the wine become His blood after the word has been spoken, and does it always remain blood, and not wine?" Inquisitor. "After the word has been spoken, the bread is His true flesh, and the wine is the true blood of Christ, and they remain flesh and blood." Jacques. "What then did Christ mean to indicate to His disciples when He said

'This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say to you, I will not drink from now on of this fruit of the vine.' Matthew 26, verse 29, and so on. My lord, Christ calls it His blood of the New Testament, and yet He indicates to His apostles that it is still a fruit of the vine, since He still calls it so after He has said that it is His blood." Inquisitor. "Where do we find this written?"

I then took his German testament, which he had before him, and read the passage to him. After I had shown and read it to him, he said to me

"You must not govern yourself according to your own understanding, but according to the exposition of the holy teachers, such as Saint Augustine, Ambrose, and others of the ancient church." Jacques. "I am well satisfied with Saint Paul's exposition, without seeking many other expositions." Inquisitor. "Where has Paul expounded the sacrament of the altar?" Jacques. "Paul has expounded and indicated to the Corinthians what the Lord's Supper and the breaking of the bread is." Inquisitor. "Show it to me?" I still had his testament, and read to him the tenth chapter of the first epistle to the Corinthians, where Paul says: "I speak as to wise men; judge what I say. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?" Verses 15 and 16.

I had scarcely read this when he hastily replied: "This is against you, for the apostle there clearly proves that there is flesh and blood in the bread and wine, and that we are partakers of the body of Christ." Jacques. "My lord, if you please, let me read a little further, and you shall see that Paul is not speaking of the body of Christ in flesh and blood, as it hung on the cross, but of His church, which is His body; for when He says that we have communion, and are partakers of the body of Christ, he says: 'For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.'" Verse 17. Inquisitor. "The apostle speaks here of another body, namely, of his church." Jacques. "I do not find that Paul makes any distinction between two bodies, but that he speaks of only one body of Christ." Inquisitor. "What then do you understand by eating His body and drinking His blood?" Jacques. "Just what Paul indicates, that it is the communion or partaking of the body of Christ." Inquisitor. "My child, how deceived you are! Do you understand, then, that you can by communion be a partaker of the body and blood of Christ without eating and drinking of it?" Jacques. "My lord, I am not deceived, but my foundation is the Word of God." Inquisitor. "Well then, what do you understand by this communion?" Jacques. "The apostle tells us this when he says, in the same chapter: 'Behold Israel after the flesh: are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?' Verse 18. Behold, my lord, here is the simile by which Paul indicates it to the Corinthians; do you not also understand it so, my lord?" Inquisitor. "Yes." Jacques. "My lord, I do not think you mean that those who were partakers of the altar therefore ate the altar, but only the sacrifices which lay on the altar." Inquisitor. "Do you think that the same holds true with the sacrament?" Jacques. "My lord, it seems to me that when we eat the bread, we thereby signify that we have part in the body of Christ; and yet we eat only the bread, and not Christ, just as Israel did not eat the altar, but only the sacrifices, and yet, by eating the sacrifices, indicated that they were partakers of the altar."

Looking sharply at me, he said: "What an error! And do you not believe that in eating the consecrated bread we eat the body of Christ?" Jacques. "Paul does not teach this, neither do I understand it so." Inquisitor. "Is it not a sad thing of you people, Jacques, that you do not believe the Word of God, which says: 'This is my body; this is my blood; do this in remembrance of me?'" Jacques. "I believe the Word of God; Christ clearly indicated that He should not be there bodily, since He said that it should be done in remembrance of Him. Paul also says: 'As often as you eat this bread, and drink this cup, you show the Lord's death till he come.' First Corinthians 11, verse 26. Hence He is not there bodily, seeing He has not come yet." Inquisitor. "He is certainly there bodily, according to the word of Christ, and all the holy teachers expound it so." Jacques. "I think more of Paul alone than of all the other teachers, and I hold only to Paul's exposition." Inquisitor. "You must also believe the holy teachers of the Catholic church." Jacques. "I believe the holy Scriptures, and only the Word of God." Inquisitor. "If you believe the Word of God, you must believe that he who (when the bread is consecrated, and the words have been pronounced) receives it bodily, receives the body and blood of Christ, since Christ says so, and He does not lie, but speaks the truth." Jacques. "I know full well that Christ speaks the truth, but we must understand how He speaks when He says: 'I am the bread which came down from heaven, and the bread that I will give is my flesh' (John 6, verse 51); do you believe this?" Inquisitor. "No, do you believe it?" Jacques. "I shall not tell you, neither do we now dispute about it; but because you say that we must believe as Christ says; behold, when He says: 'I am the vine and my Father is the husbandman.' John 15, verse 1. Paul also says that the Rock of which the children of Israel drank was Christ." First Corinthians 10, verse 4. Inquisitor. "No, no, all these words are not to be believed thus; they are only types of Christ." Jacques. "So is this expression." Inquisitor. "But this is a sacrament which is left us as a memorial of the body of Christ." Jacques. "My lord, behold Israel after the flesh; the lamb which they ate was called the Passover and a perpetual memorial, that through the mighty hand of God they had gone out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage; and so is also the bread which we break, a memorial of Christ, who has redeemed us from sin and eternal death, delivering us from the bondage of the devil and the enemy." Inquisitor. "Yes, according to the opinion of your pastors, Calvin and Zuinglius, and like heretics, who have introduced new doctrines; but we have been in this faith over fourteen hundred years; why do you not believe us?" Jacques. "My lord, should I believe because of the long time? There were many heretics, such as the Sadducees, Nicolaitans, Gentiles, and many others, who erred much longer yet. Turn to the Scriptures alone, according to the example of the good King Josiah." Second Kings 22, verse 11. Inquisitor. "Do you think so, my son? No, no." Jacques. "My lord, so did the children say to Jeremiah, when they were out of the way. Jeremiah 18, verse 18. You also know well how they abused the grace of God, making a golden calf, praising it and saying: 'This is the god which brought us up and delivered us out of Egypt.' Exodus 32, verse 4. Thus your people now say of the bread: It is Christ who died for us."

He became angry, and asked me: "Are we idolaters, because we worship Christ?" Jacques. "No, if He is in the bread; but if He is not in it, what else are you?" Inquisitor. "Well then, what do you believe concerning it? Say only a word, yes or no." Jacques. "My lord, you have heard that I believe that He sits on the right hand of His Father in heaven." Inquisitor. "But in the bread?" Jacques. "My lord, I have told you what I believe in regard to this, according to the testimony of Paul." Inquisitor. "Then you do not believe, I see, that the holy flesh of Christ is eaten as a sacrament?" Jacques. "Do all who receive the bread also receive the body of Christ?" Inquisitor. "Yes, completely, whoever they may be." Jacques. "Does a robber, murderer, rogue, or any other person who is full of treachery, deceit and wickedness, and who feels no sorrow or grief for his evil deeds, but still intends to lead such a wicked life — does such a one receive the body and blood of Christ?" Inquisitor. "Even if he were the worst man in the world, indeed, even a Turk or heathen, if he came to the sacrament he would receive the body and blood of Christ as well as any other person; indeed, what is more, even if he were a beast." Jacques. "How, my lord, could it be possible that the unbelieving, ungodly and unrighteous, to whom eternal damnation is promised, should receive the body and blood of Christ? It would necessarily follow, contrary to all Scripture, whether God willed it or not, that they would have eternal life, and the beasts as well as we; for the Lord has promised that whoever eats His flesh and drinks His blood has eternal life. Thus the ungodly would have part in the body of Christ and of Belial, in light and in darkness, which is impossible, as Paul says." John 6, verse 54; Second Corinthians 6, verse 15. Inquisitor. "How? Do you not understand what Paul says, that he who eats this body receives his judgment?" Jacques. "Hold on, my lord; do not break the Scriptures, for Paul says: this bread, and not: this body." First Corinthians 11, verse 27. Inquisitor. "Well then, whoever eats of this body, or this bread, and drinks this cup unworthily, receives damnation to himself." Jacques. "My lord, he who receives his judgment is far from receiving the body of Christ; it is the sentence of his death that he receives." Inquisitor. "Well then, you certainly acknowledge these words of Jesus Christ

'Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life' (John 6, verse 54); so you must certainly believe that we can eat and drink Him, as He says." Jacques. "I believe the words of Jesus Christ, but not in the way the Jews did, who were offended at Him and said: 'How can this man give us his blood to drink, and his flesh to eat?' — indeed, even His disciples." Inquisitor. "This was because they did not understand it well." Jacques. "This I readily believe; for if they had understood it well, they would not have said it, and His disciples would not have forsaken Him because of these words, as they did." Inquisitor. "Understand well, my son, this was because they understood that His flesh had to be eaten roasted or boiled, like other meat; but He spoke of the sacramental eating; otherwise the eating would have been of no avail. But do you not believe that we eat His flesh sacramentally, which is a sacrament, which He left us under the form of bread and wine, into which He has transformed Himself?" Jacques. "Then He left behind Him things that are good for nothing." Inquisitor. "How so?" Jacques. "For this reason, my lord: when His disciples understood it as grossly as you and others do, He said to them that the flesh profits nothing, but it is the Spirit that gives life; and my words, He said, are spirit and life (John 6, verse 63); so what profit is it if we eat His flesh?" Inquisitor. "This was because they did not understand it well, as I have already told you." Jacques. "My lord, I do indeed believe that if they had understood it well, it would not have been necessary for Him to show them that He was alluding to His Word." Inquisitor. "How do you know that He was speaking of His Word?" Jacques. "My lord, I know that it was of His Word, even as it is written that man shall not live by bread alone, but by the word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, which alone gives us life in God to eternal life." Matthew 4, verse 4. Inquisitor. "See how your deceivers have instructed you in their new doctrines." Jacques. "My foundation does not rest upon men, but upon the Word of God." Inquisitor. "Why then will you not believe, like your mother the holy church, that after the words are pronounced, the bread and the wine are changed?" Jacques. "My lord, I have already told you that it is because there is nothing of this kind written in the Scriptures, for neither the bread nor the wine which Christ gave was changed." Inquisitor. "Oh, certainly it was." Jacques. "My lord, I have proved to you that He still calls it a fruit of the vine after the words were spoken." Inquisitor. "Do you not believe then, Jacques, that Jesus Christ is Almighty, and that He had power to give His disciples His blood to drink?" Jacques. "I know, my lord, that He is Almighty, and that He was able to do it; and even if He had done it, my lord, has He promised you that you people should also perform such a work?" Inquisitor. "But is Jesus Christ not able to leave us this in His sacrament, for a testament?" Jacques. "Yes, my lord, had He said so; for He had power over the winds, and the devils, to change water into wine, and to make Himself invisible. Matthew 8, verse 26; John 2, verse 9; Luke 4, verse 30. In short, I believe that He is Almighty in all things; but a sinful man does not have this power." Inquisitor. "Not, if he utters the same words of Christ?" Jacques. "The power does not lie in the words; this would be the same as sorcery. And if anyone were to say to a sick man: 'Be made whole,' in the same manner in which Christ said it, it would not heal him." Inquisitor. "Then you do not believe that Christ Jesus is in the bread?" Jacques. "My lord, I think you have heard my resolution as to what I believe with regard to it. Christ said that we should do it in remembrance of Him; now, if He were present, how could it be done in remembrance of Him?" Inquisitor. "Oh, how these villains, Zuinglius and Calvin, have deceived you; those profaners of the sacrament, who pervert all Scripture into its contrary." Jacques. "My faith is not founded upon the doctrine of either Calvin or Zuinglius." Inquisitor. "Upon what then?" Jacques. "Upon the Word of God, and the foundation of the apostles." Inquisitor. "How? You do not believe the Word of God." Jacques. "My lord, how should I not believe the Word of God? For this same Word I am a prisoner, and stand here in chains before you, to bear witness to it." Inquisitor. "My son, it is for the word of Satan, and not for the Word of God." Jacques. "My lord, take care what you say, lest you blaspheme; for I have not quoted the word of Satan for my doctrine and faith, but the pure Word of God; but you quote to me the word and exposition of men." Inquisitor. "It is the word of the holy teachers of the church, whom you reject; here is the cause of your error." Jacques. "I do not reject them, but I leave them undisturbed; for I find material enough in the Word of God to lay a good foundation, and water of life enough to drink in the pure fountain, without running to the brooks or pools, which are mostly filthy and muddy." Inquisitor. "Well, this does not bring us any further; it is late already; since you will not believe as our mother the holy church instructs you, take heed and consider the matter well; for you are in such error that if you die in this state, you will be damned to all the devils, in the depths of hell." Jacques. "My lord, it is written that judgment belongs to God alone; how then do you so presumptuously usurp God's place? God will judge me." Inquisitor. "Jacques, this is all clear; for you do not believe, and he who does not believe is damned, says Christ." Mark 16, verse 16. Jacques. "It is written

'Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.' John 7, verse 24. If I did not believe it, I would not quote the Word of God in my defense." Inquisitor. "All heretics do this. Well then, pray earnestly to God, that you may return to the holy church." Jacques. "I trust, through the grace of God, that I have become a member of the true and holy church, which has been cleansed and purchased with the blood of Jesus Christ."

Thereupon he arose, and said to me: "Adieu, Jacques, see that you come to a good conclusion; for your time is short; consider the matter well." I also bade him adieu, and told him that I was always ready to follow whatever was best, in what should be proved to me by the holy Scriptures, and nothing else.

We had many other words yet concerning this matter, for about two hours; but I have forgotten them. He listens attentively, and does not easily become heated; we spoke sometimes in Flemish, and sometimes in French; for the most part, however, I spoke in Flemish, because of the listeners whom I heard outside the door.

Behold here the two articles in regard to which one is most tormented by them. Every time he came back to me, he brought some subtle Scripture with which to catch me; but, the Lord be praised, I was always victorious. I have been before them a full eighteen or twenty times, and if I were to write out all the discourses I had with them in regard to these two articles, I would need a ream of paper, so great was the number of unscriptural comparisons and similes which they brought against me; but I always referred them to the Scriptures. If there is anything in my hymns which does not agree with this writing, it need surprise no one; for however much I might write, I could not write all that was spoken between us. Thus they tormented me.

On Friday afternoon, the 14th of January 1558, I was again brought before the inquisitor. I came before him, and he greeted me cheerfully, for, as far as I could tell, wine had made him very merry; he brought no books with him. After we had exchanged a few words with each other, he said to me: "Jacques, the reason I have come here is simply to learn your decision, for I will no longer dispute with you about the articles of faith, such as the mass, confession, indulgences, purgatory, and invocation of the saints, or other ordinances of our mother the holy church." Jacques. "My lord, I am well satisfied; I also do not seek to dispute, but simply to believe what we are bound to believe, as far as the articles of faith are concerned." Inquisitor. "Yes, we have not much to do with disputing; for Paul says: 'A man who is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid.'" Titus 3, verse 10. Jacques. "My lord, how can you reprove me for heresy, since you have not yet convicted me of being a heretic?" Inquisitor. "Not? Are you not a heretic, since you contradict the Christian faith?" Jacques. "I do not contradict the faith, for all my purpose tends toward it; but you take one view of the Scriptures, and I another, and no one can judge which is right and which is wrong, except spiritual men through the Spirit of God." First Corinthians 2, verse 15.

He laughingly asked me: "Do you have the Spirit of God?" Jacques. "My lord, you must not ask me this in jest; for I do not boast of it; nevertheless, I trust through the grace of God that I am not driven by the spirit of Satan." Inquisitor. "Nevertheless, you are deceived and in error, and Paul says that such are to be avoided after the first or second admonition." Jacques. "Since then you regard us as heretics, oh, that God would grant that you would at least use Paul's advice, that is, shun us, and withdraw from us, and not persecute us to death, and shed our blood in every corner." Inquisitor. "Jacques, I do not seek your death, God knows." Jacques. "My lord, my God truly knows it well, and it will be seen in the end." Inquisitor. "Yes, we only do what we have been charged with and commanded to do." Jacques. "By whom, my lord, by God or by men?" Inquisitor. "We are commanded by God to avoid false prophets." Jacques. "It is indeed true, my lord, that Christ admonishes us to beware of false prophets, but He gives us a sign by which to know them, namely, that a tree is known by its fruits. What fruits have you seen in us, by which you could judge that we are false prophets?" Inquisitor. "Enough every day." Jacques. "In what?" Inquisitor. "In this, that you have a false doctrine, which teaches men wrongly, and leads them into damnation." Jacques. "My lord, that our doctrine is false is merely your opinion; nevertheless, you cannot know that we are false prophets, except by the fruit of the works, by which it may be known whether we are false prophets or not; for Christ says: 'You shall know them by their works' (Matthew 7, verse 16); but He does not say, by their faith." Inquisitor. "You people justify yourselves by your works." Jacques. "No; but it is impossible to gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles, or for a corrupt tree to bring forth good fruit, according to the testimony of the Lord." Inquisitor. "Well, Jacques, as I told you, I have not come here for the purpose of disputing, but simply to learn your decision." Jacques. "I do not wish to dispute either; but I want to reply to you, that you unjustly accuse us of heresy and deception." Inquisitor. "Well, let us dismiss that; what conclusion have you come to in regard to your confession? Do you still hold to the views which you confessed before the commissary?" Jacques. "Yes." Inquisitor. "Will you not then allow yourself to be instructed?" Jacques. "I seek nothing else than always to follow that which is best, most righteous and most virtuous, and I am not so obstinate in my faith; if I knew a better way to eternal life than the one which I now have, I would accept it." Inquisitor. "Well then, concerning baptism and the sacrament, of which we spoke together, what do you think about it?" Jacques. "Only that, my lord, which shall be proved to me by the Scriptures; that I shall believe, and nothing else." Inquisitor. "Then you do not believe the holy teachers of the Catholic church, do I hear? No?" Jacques. "I believe only the holy Scriptures." Inquisitor. "This is the reason you are in heresy; that you think more of yourself than of the holy teachers." Jacques. "I do not glory, except in the cross of Christ; but I will not trust in any man; for it is written: 'Cursed be the man who trusts in man.'" Jeremiah 17, verse 5. Inquisitor. "I know that; but you do not believe the Word of God either." Jacques. "My lord, do not say this; for it is not so." Inquisitor. "Not? If our Savior, taking the bread, says: 'This is my body'; and, taking the cup: 'This is my blood'; why then do you not yet believe Him? Why do you doubt it?" Jacques. "My lord, I believe Christ's words, and do not doubt them." Inquisitor. "Yes, according to your own opinion, and with a different meaning." Jacques. "My lord, I trust that I do not understand it differently from the way the apostles understand it, even as Paul expounds it." First Corinthians 10. Inquisitor. "You say so."

We had many more words yet about this article, also about baptism, and a little afterwards about purgatory, and the decree, in all for about an hour and a half; whereupon he left me, showing me a very pleasant and friendly countenance, whether it came from the heart, I do not know.

On the 20th of January of the said year, I was again brought before the same inquisitor. He asked me: "What conclusion have you come to in regard to what I laid before you concerning baptism and the sacrament, and what are your views in the matter?" Jacques. "I have nothing to tell you other than what you have already heard from me." Inquisitor. "Then, if I hear right, you remain opinionated and obstinate?" Jacques. "My lord, I should be sorry to be obstinate against my own conscience; but since you cannot prove to me by the Scriptures that which you believe, namely, that the baptism of infants is an ordinance of God, and an apostolic practice, and also, that the bread and the wine are changed into flesh and blood, when the priest has pronounced the words over the bread, this seems to me sorcery, and I cannot understand it so." Inquisitor. "You may not doubt that the change takes place through the power of God, for I have sufficiently proved it to you by the Scriptures of God; but you will not believe." Jacques. "My lord, do not say so; for if you had proved it to me by the Scriptures, I should gladly believe it; for all my salvation lies in God's holy Word." Inquisitor. "I have quoted the Word of God to you; but you believe nothing but your fanaticism and opinion." Jacques. "My lord, I beg you not to think this; if I knew better, or understood it differently, I should not wish to resist the Word of God against my conscience, being in the state in which I am, namely, imprisoned for my life, in daily expectation of death; or it might well be said that I was the most miserable and unfortunate man that ever lived upon earth, that I should voluntarily and deliberately seek pain and suffering here until death, in order to obtain eternal damnation." Inquisitor. "Yes, my child, take good heed what you do; for if you die in this evil faith and doctrine that you have, you are damned to all the devils." Jacques. "O my lord, how dare you speak so? It is written: 'Do not judge, that you be not judged; for with what judgment you judge (says the Lord), you shall be judged.'" Matthew 7, verses 1 and 2. Inquisitor. "I judge you according to truth." Jacques. "My lord, do not say that; for you do not know what you judge." Inquisitor. "Oh, yes, I do." And taking up an inkstand, which stood on the table, he said to me:

"As sure as I know that I hold this inkstand, so sure am I that if you continue in this doctrine, and die thus, you will never see the face of God, but will be eternally damned." Jacques. "My lord, do not judge so; for you usurp God's place, and rob Him of His honor; for judgment belongs to Him alone." Inquisitor. "Do you think that I do not know what I am saying? And that I do not see that you are in error? No heretics shall enter into paradise." Jacques. "My lord, you think that we are in error; but as you people think of us, so we think of you." Inquisitor. "Oh, it is easy to know through the Word of God who are in error and heresy." Jacques. "True, it is easy to know for those to whom the Lord has given the grace and wisdom. And for this reason I beg you, my lord, not to take it amiss, if I speak somewhat boldly with you, and open my heart to you." Inquisitor. "No indeed." Jacques. "My lord, as you people think that we are false prophets and deceivers, so we think that you are; as you think that we err, so we think that you err; as you think that we deceive the people, so we think that you deceive them, and upon this we forsake life and all that we have in the world, to show to you people, and to seal with our blood, the faith which we have in God." Inquisitor. "Nevertheless, this only tends to your damnation." Jacques. "If it tends to our damnation, we are of all men under heaven the most miserable (First Corinthians 15, verse 19); for we are cast out, despised and rejected as abominable before all the world (First Corinthians 4, verse 9), and flee from place to place, so that we suffer continually in the flesh, and have no rest, and, according to what you say, we are also to suffer after this life: no, no, my lord, we feel quite a different witness and promise through the Word of God." Inquisitor. "This arises from the fact that you are deceived; but it will avail you nothing." Jacques. "Where then is the people who must follow their Master through suffering and affliction to eternal life, as Christ has said that they should be hated for His name's sake." Matthew 10, verse 22. Inquisitor. "This was spoken to the apostles only." Jacques. "How is it then that Paul says that all who will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution? Second Timothy 3, verse 12. And the prophet says that the afflictions of the righteous shall be many, but that the Lord delivers them out of all evil." Psalm 34, verse 10. Inquisitor. [n809-8] "This means that the devil will always cause them enough temptation and affliction." Jacques. "Paul speaks of persecution, and not of temptation; nor can I conceive that Christ spoke of temptation, when He said

'They will scourge you in their synagogues, and persecute you to death, and will think that they are doing God service by it; and you shall be hated by father and mother, brothers and friends, and some of you they shall put to death.'" Matthew 10, verses 17 and 21; John 16, verse 2. Inquisitor. "Well, this was spoken only to the apostles." Jacques. "Does Christ not speak there of all who believed in His name?" Inquisitor. "He spoke only to the apostles, who would suffer while they went about proclaiming the Gospel; but afterwards they would cease to persecute them." Jacques. "How did it come about that the churches suffered such cruel persecution? And yet they were not all apostles." Inquisitor. "How so?" Jacques. "Just as Luke testifies, Acts 17, verse 13, and Paul, First Thessalonians 2, verse 14. Indeed, you yourself, my lord, know very well what Eusebius, one of the ancient teachers, writes in the eighth chapter of his fourth book. In writing of the early church, and of the suffering and contempt in which they lived, does he not say that the people regarded them as robbers, murderers, killers of infants, and abominable men, and said that they committed incest with their mothers and sisters, shed human blood in their worship, and sacrificed their children to idols? They were also considered rebels, accursed villains, and enemies of God and of every creature, and were charged with many other wickednesses laid to them by the world. Is it not so, my lord? as the ancient writers Cyprian and Tertullian also write." Inquisitor. "It is so; this is all very true; but it was done by those who had no knowledge of the Gospel." Jacques. "I do indeed believe that if they had believed the Gospel, they would not have persecuted them, nor spoken such slanders against them; but it has always been so, that even those who boasted of having the Word of God persecuted those who sought to fear the Lord and to serve God with all their heart. You see it in Israel: those who ought to have upheld the honor and law of God put to death the prophets that were sent to them, and those who knew the Lord from a pure heart." Jeremiah 18, verse 18. Inquisitor. "For this reason the wicked are always among the good, and the chaff remains with the good grain to the end."

We had much more conversation about this matter; finally he asked me my decision concerning baptism and the sacrament, to which I replied as I had at other times. He then left me, charging me to ask God to give me understanding to return, as he said, to the holy Catholic church.

On the 27th of January of the aforementioned year I was again brought before the same inquisitor. After a few words he asked me what conclusion I had come to with regard to what he had said, namely, with reference to baptism and the sacrament. Then I replied to him as I had at other times, that I knew nothing better than to hold to my first confession, since I could not find in the Scriptures what he laid before me, and what he would force me to believe. Inquisitor. "Will you then remain obstinate in this, and not believe otherwise?" Jacques. "I am not obstinate, but I do not find in the Scriptures what you say I must believe." Inquisitor. "No? Do you not find in the Scriptures what you must believe concerning the sacrament?" Jacques. "Yes, but not in the way you believe it; for I cannot understand it so." Inquisitor. "The reason is that you do not want to understand it." Jacques. "How, my lord, do you mean that I want to resist God against my conscience? In that case I should be worse than an unreasoning beast." Inquisitor. "Why then do you not understand it?" Jacques. "Because it is not given to me to understand it differently; and do not be surprised at this, for it is written in the prophets, where the Lord says, 'They shall all be taught of God.'" Isaiah 54, verse 13. Inquisitor. "Nevertheless, it seems to me that if I lay it before you from the Scriptures, it is nothing but self-opinion and obstinacy if you refuse to believe it." Jacques. "I cannot understand it so; do not think that if I understood it differently, I would want to find my pleasure and amusement here, imprisoned and chained day after day, having left my wife and family, to my great loss, expecting death from day to day; for this would be contrary to human nature." Inquisitor. "Well then, believe only the Word of God as it is written there, and I will be satisfied, namely, that when we eat the bread, we partake of the body of Christ, and when we drink the wine, we have part in His blood, as Paul testifies to the Corinthians." First Corinthians 10, verse 16. Jacques. "Be satisfied then; I believe as Paul testifies there." Inquisitor. "Do you believe then that there is a communion of the body of Christ?" Jacques. "Yes." Inquisitor. "Well then, you cannot be a partaker of the body without eating of it; so you must certainly say that it is the body of Christ that you eat." Jacques. "Paul does not say this." Inquisitor. "How can you be a partaker of the body without eating of it?" Jacques. "How did Israel become partakers of the altar, when they did not eat the altar, but only the sacrifices?" First Corinthians 10, verse 18.

Inquisitor. "Ha, ha! See how Calvin or Zuinglius has instructed you." Jacques. "I do not hold the doctrine of Calvin or Zuinglius." Inquisitor. "Whose then, Menno Simons'?" Jacques. "My doctrine and faith are not founded on men, but on the Word of God." Inquisitor. "Who then is the head and captain of you people?" Jacques. "Christ." Inquisitor. "But who is it that instructs you here on earth? Who is your teacher?" Jacques. "The Word of God."

When I saw that he did not know what church I belonged to, I did not want to tell him or point it out to him.

Inquisitor. "Nevertheless, you must be instructed in this by some men." Jacques. "We are not founded on men, but on the living Rock." Inquisitor. "Have you then no pastor or bishop?" Jacques. "Yes." Inquisitor. "Who is it?" Jacques. "Christ the Son of God." Inquisitor. "You know very well what I mean! But you do not want to answer. However, do you have any followers of Calvin or Zuinglius? Are you opposed to Menno Simons?" Jacques. "I believe that there is not much difference between my faith and Menno Simons'." Inquisitor. "Do you then believe, like Menno, that Christ did not take our flesh in the virgin Mary?" Jacques. "My lord, you said that you would not dispute about the matter; have you changed your mind?" Inquisitor. "Well then, tell me simply what you believe about it." Jacques. "I believe that He is the Son of God in every respect, in flesh and spirit; but where He took His flesh from, this I leave in the mystery of God; the apostles did not dispute about it." Inquisitor. "Yes, yes." We had many other words besides, which I have not written here.

On Monday, the 1st of February of the same year 1558, I was again brought before the same inquisitor. After we had exchanged a few words, he asked me, "Have you not prayed the Lord for wisdom?" Jacques. "Yes, and I need to pray to Him daily." Inquisitor. "How is your conscience? Is it at ease?" Jacques. "Very well; the Lord be praised for it." Inquisitor. "What are your views concerning baptism and the sacrament, about which we spoke?" Jacques. "I hold the same views that I clearly stated to you before." Inquisitor. "Will you not believe differently?" Jacques. "I would believe differently if it were given to me to understand differently; but I will not speak as a hypocrite against my heart and conscience; for it is written that the Spirit of God flees all deceit." Wisdom of Solomon 1, verse 5. Inquisitor. "Then, as I see, you have come to a settled determination about it." Jacques. "Yes, until I am instructed differently. My lord, do you suppose that these, namely, baptism and the sacrament, are the only things in your church that I object to?" Inquisitor. "Well, what else do you object to?" Jacques. "Many of the ordinances and institutions in your church, about which I do not find a word in the holy Scriptures." Inquisitor. "Yet we have no ordinance or institution that I could not prove to you from the Scriptures." Jacques. "Where is the word mass recorded, or purgatory, or praying for the dead?" Inquisitor. "I will prove it to you, namely, purgatory, and that we must pray for the dead." Jacques. "Where is it written in the holy Scriptures?" Inquisitor. "Will you receive the books of the Maccabees?" Jacques. "Yes, indeed, as apocryphal books." Inquisitor. "What does apocryphal mean?" Jacques. "The ancients used this name to show that they are not authentic books, from which rules or ordinances may be taken." Inquisitor. "It is true that the doctors had some difficulty with them, but you may not reject them for that reason." Jacques. "Yes, my lord, the reason I will not receive them is not only this, that I will not trust what men have said, but also because I do not find that Christ or His apostles received them, or quoted any testimony from them." Inquisitor. "Yes, yes, where have you found that Christ or His apostles quoted anything from the books of the Kings?" Jacques. "Enough." Inquisitor. "Where then?" Jacques. "My lord, in the first place it is written in Matthew (chapter 12, verse 1) that the Pharisees blamed Christ because His disciples plucked the ears of grain on the Sabbath. And Christ answered them, 'Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him; how he entered into the house of God and ate the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat?' So I say that since Christ refers them to what is written in the books of the Kings, He shows by this that He receives them as authentic." [n809-1] Inquisitor. "Well, do you find anything in the book of Joshua?" Jacques. "Yes, my lord." Inquisitor. "What is that?" Jacques. "My lord, you know well that James in his epistle (chapter 2, verse 25) brings forward a testimony or example from the book of Joshua, namely, the second chapter, where he speaks of Rahab the harlot, who was saved by her works in faith." Inquisitor. "Then you will not receive the books of the Maccabees, because Christ and His apostles have not quoted any testimony from them?" Jacques. "No, and this for the reason that they contain a doctrine which is contrary to all Scripture, namely, that of sacrificing and praying for the dead." Deuteronomy 13, verse 1. Inquisitor. "If I would take the trouble, I could prove all our ordinances from the Scriptures, such as mass, confession, image worship, invocation of the saints, and others." Jacques. "I think not; and even if we were agreed, my lord, in every article, I would still not want to unite with you, unless you should prove to me from the Scriptures that it is Christian-like to shed innocent blood on account of the faith, as you do." Inquisitor. "This is on account of errors." Jacques. "And even if it were because the Scriptures were understood wrongly, I still do not find in the Scriptures that we may put anyone to death on account of his faith."

Inquisitor. "Oh, I can soon prove that heretics may be put to death; for it is written that if any heretics or false prophets should arise, they shall be put to death."

Jacques. "Yes, I have read the 13th chapter of Deuteronomy, where it is written that if a false prophet, or another person among them, should arise and teach them to go after other gods, which they had not known, that false prophet should be put to death, and stoned with stones." Inquisitor. "Well then, see here a testimony that heretics may be put to death." Jacques. "My lord, we are no longer under the law, but under the Gospel; and even if we were under the law, we would not teach you to go after other gods, but after Him who created heaven and earth, and His Son Jesus Christ." Inquisitor. "You certainly do it by your ordinances." Jacques. "The Israelites were not all allowed to put anyone to death because of a difference in the use of the ordinances, since they believed in the same God; but all this does not answer our purpose; for what was commanded in the law is not commanded in the Gospel of Christ." Inquisitor. "Not? How so?" Jacques. "Because, my lord, in the law it was commanded, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, and to love one's neighbor, and to hate one's enemy; but through Christ we are commanded quite the contrary, not to resist evil, and to love our enemies." Matthew 5, verse 38; Leviticus 24, verse 20; Leviticus 19, verse 18. Inquisitor. "True, but He did not command that heretics should not be put to death." Jacques. "What does Christ mean then, when He says that we must not root up the tares which are among the good grain, fearing that in rooting up the tares we might also pull up the wheat; therefore He commands us to let both grow until the harvest; but the harvest has not come yet." Matthew 13, verse 29, and so on. Inquisitor. "You do not understand this very well; for it is easy to see whether they are tares or wheat." Jacques. "Yes, for Him who knows the seed." Inquisitor. "Yes, that is true." Jacques. "My lord, it is written that carnal men know only carnal things; but the things that are spiritual no one knows, except the Spirit of God." First Corinthians 2, verse 11, and so on. Inquisitor. "This is very true." Jacques. "For this reason, my lord, I should like to ask you something." Inquisitor. "What is it?" Jacques. "Do you have the Spirit of God, or has the council received the Spirit of God?" Inquisitor. "No, I will not answer this." Jacques. "How then will you or those of the council be able to judge spiritual things? For the matter of which we speak is spiritual, and must be judged by the Spirit of God." Inquisitor. "You are judged only because you have transgressed the decree of the prince." Jacques. "If his command had not been contrary to God's command, I would not have transgressed it." Inquisitor. "It is not contrary to the command of God." Jacques. "I wish you would prove to me by the Scriptures that the decree of the Emperor or King is upright and just?"

Inquisitor. "I believe you think that all our fathers were deceived, and that your sect is saved. What will you say? It is a full twelve or thirteen hundred years since Emperor Theodosius had an edict or mandate proclaimed, to put the heretics to death, namely, those who were then rebaptized, like your sect."

Jacques. "Yes, my lord, you say that our sect has existed only twenty or thirty years, but it has always been the case that those who would live godly in Christ Jesus have had to suffer persecution, according to the words of Paul." Inquisitor. "This is how all heretics speak." Jacques. "Paul said it first; yet he was not a heretic." Inquisitor. "I am well aware that he was no heretic; but they all use the words of Paul; but I tell you, decrees and mandates for the putting to death of heretics are not a recent invention, but this has been the practice for fourteen hundred years already." Jacques. "But it remains to be seen whether Emperor Theodosius, of whom you spoke, did well, and a good work according to the will of God, in issuing such a mandate." Inquisitor. "Yes, he certainly did, since he well knew that they were heretics." Jacques. "My lord, in his opinion they were heretics; but in the opinion of those who gave their lives for the testimony of their faith, he himself was a heretic and a tyrant." Inquisitor. "How do you know that?" Jacques. "This is self-evident; for those who put us to death for our faith we regard as no better than heretics and tyrants, and it may easily be presumed that those who were put to death by Emperor Theodosius did the same. Hence this matter cannot be judged except by the Spirit of God." Inquisitor. "No, no, you must not think that so many learned doctors as were then in the Catholic church would have permitted it, if it had been wrong to put heretics to death." Jacques. "I will not rely upon the ordinances or the wisdom of men; for I hold to the instruction of Christ and His apostles, who constantly admonish us to separate from false prophets, and to shun heretics; but not to pursue them, or to persecute them to death." Matthew 7, verse 15; Titus 3, verse 10. Inquisitor. "My son, do you know why they did not put them to death?" Jacques. "I believe it was because it was not pleasing to God." Inquisitor. "No, no, Jacques, it was because they were not powerful enough, and had neither king, nor prince, nor magistrate." Jacques. "Christ had power enough to call to His aid more than twelve legions of angels, and the apostles had power enough through the Holy Spirit, but they were called to be a flock of sheep and lambs, as harmless as doves, and so changed as to be like little children." Matthew 26, verse 53; Matthew 10, verse 16; John 10, verse 27. Inquisitor. "It is true, it was so at that time." Jacques. "And now, my lord, shall the children of God be of a different nature from what they were then; shall they have the nature of wolves?" Inquisitor. "Certainly not; I do not say that." Jacques. "Yet it appears to me, my lord, that those who now boast of being children of God have the genuine nature of ravening wolves."

He looked at me sharply and said to me: "Why do you think so?" Jacques. "Because, my lord, Christ calls His people sheep and lambs; and it is the nature of a flock of sheep that if they see any beast approaching, and perceive that it is a wolf, they all flee, indeed, even if there were a thousand of them against one wolf, and they do not pursue the wolf, to devour him and to shed his blood; but those who boast of being the flock of Christ do the very opposite; where do they get this nature?" Inquisitor. "This comparison is good for nothing, and the allegations are useless; for it is not with the flock of Christ as it is with a flock of sheep."

Seeing that he rejected this, I asked him: "Is it not necessary that the children of God should be born of God, as John testifies? (John 1, verse 13) and must they not be of such a nature and disposition as their Father and Lord?" Inquisitor. "Yes, but why?" Jacques. "Because it is written that the Son of God was led as a lamb or sheep to the slaughter, and did not open His mouth; hence His children must be of such a nature, since they are born of God." Isaiah 53, verse 7; Luke 8, verse 32. Inquisitor. [n809-9] "This—it had to come so." Jacques. [n809-10] "Why?" Inquisitor. "That the Scriptures might be fulfilled." Jacques. "Thus it must also be with regard to His children, so that the Scripture may be fulfilled." Inquisitor. "What Scripture?" Jacques. "This: 'If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; remember the word that I said to you, the servant is not greater than his lord.'" Inquisitor. "This He said to His apostles." Jacques. "I understand it as having been spoken by Him of all His children, and as having been written for our instruction." Inquisitor. "No, no, my son; you must understand that the apostles were sent to proclaim and preach the Gospel to every creature, and the Lord predicted that much suffering should come upon them, and that they should be put to death; but after they had gained a prince to the faith, they had rest, and might well put to death the heretics in their country." Jacques. "My lord, the Scriptures do not say this, nor can I conceive that it can be the nature of a lamb to kill and devour a wolf; for you people say that you are the flock of Christ, and that we are ravening wolves, and you put us to death; this does not seem right to me."

Thereupon he laughingly asked me: "Jacques, was Peter not also a sheep of Christ?" Jacques. "My lord, if he was chosen by God, he also belonged to the flock." Matthew 10, verse 1. Inquisitor. "Answer, yes or no." Jacques. "I believe that he was not only a sheep of the flock of Christ, but even a shepherd." Inquisitor. "Well then, he who was a sheep killed two people." Jacques. "Whom?" Inquisitor. "Ananias and his wife Sapphira." Jacques. "How did he kill them, seeing that he had neither stick nor sword? Was it not the Spirit of the Lord?" Inquisitor. "Nevertheless, he did it." Jacques. "My lord, do not give the glory to men, as though they could do this by their own power; for they were killed through the Spirit of the Lord; moreover, it was not for such a cause as that for which you put people to death; but it was because they lied against the Holy Ghost." Acts 3, verse 12; Acts 5, verse 3. Inquisitor.

"Well, Jacques, my son, this brings us no further; see that you consider the matter well, reform, and become converted to the faith of your fathers, for you are in error; so believe as a good Christian is bound to believe, and do not attempt so many things." Jacques. "Faith is the gift of God, says Paul." Ephesians 2, verse 8; Romans 12, verse 3; First Corinthians 12, verse 9. Inquisitor. "Yes, it is truly the gift of God." Jacques. "Then men cannot give it." Inquisitor. "Certainly not; we must pray to God for it." Jacques. "How does it come, then, that they want to compel me to believe by threats of death?" Inquisitor. "Time is given you to become converted." Jacques. "My lord, how much time? Six, seven, or eight days, as I have seen in Brabant? Can one change his faith so quickly?" Inquisitor. "I know nothing about Brabant, but here we give people six weeks at least, to see whether they will believe, when the Word of God has been presented to them." Jacques. "Why do you say, my lord, if they will believe it? You talk as though they could believe of their own accord, and yet you say that faith is the gift of God. The apostles had heard the Lord Jesus, who was full of wisdom and truth, for two or three years, and yet they could not understand well, as you may gather from the two disciples who went to Emmaus. Luke 24, verse 13. Paul also had heard the apostles and disciples; yet he could not understand, but cast them into prison. Acts 9, verse 1. But when it pleased God, He made His will known to them, at the time which He had prepared, and not at any time appointed by man." Inquisitor. "That was because they did not yet have this doctrine, and since it was in the beginning, they could not understand it." Jacques. "It was because it was not given them, or because they were not drawn by the Father (John 6, verse 44). Why do you not also wait until God does His will with us?" Inquisitor. "You have heard for a long time, and time is still given you for consideration; you have three weeks yet from this day, to consider the matter." Jacques. "My lord, do you not mean that after three weeks I shall be put to death?" Inquisitor. "You may still turn in the meantime." Jacques. "But if it is not given me to understand differently, and I cannot understand otherwise, how shall I turn?" Inquisitor. "For this reason time is given you, in order to see whether God will not show you mercy, that you may become converted." Jacques. "My lord, I have in mind just now the children of Israel, who were besieged in the city of Bethulia, and suffered from scarcity of water, so that their wives and children died of thirst, and they said: 'There is no hope from God for us any more; let us deliver the city into the hands of the enemies.' Judith 7, verse 23, and so on. So you people also say: 'There is no more hope that he will turn; let us deliver him to death.' And as Ozias, the ruler of the city, thinking to give good counsel, said to the inhabitants: 'Let us wait yet five days, and if within these five days no help comes from the Lord, we will deliver the city to our enemies.' My lord, were they not sharply rebuked by a widow named Judith, who said to them: 'Who are you who have tempted God this day, and stand instead of God among the children of men, and would comprehend his purpose?'" And so on. Judith 8, verse 12, and so on. Inquisitor. "This cannot be compared to your case." Jacques. "My lord, it appears to me to be the same thing; for you people say that if no help comes from God within the time you have appointed us, we must be delivered to death, and according to what you say, we are damned to all the devils." Inquisitor. "Jacques, there is no doubt about it." Jacques. "But how do you expect, my lord, to escape God's judgment, since you thus send us away to damnation? Why do you not leave us in the hand of God until the end? For as long as we live here, hope of reformation may always be entertained, seeing you think that we are damned; but after death there is no longer any hope." Inquisitor. "I do not drive you to damnation; for I am not the one that judges you; nor will I be guilty of your death."

Jacques. "My lord, when Susanna was unjustly condemned to death, who bore the punishment, the judges, or the witnesses?"

Inquisitor. "Those who were guilty."

Jacques. "My lord, the judges were rebuked by Daniel; but the witnesses were rebuked and punished." Inquisitor. "Do you think that I am a witness in your case? I have come here simply to instruct you." Jacques. "My lord, yet I regard you as the principal witness; for upon your testimony the judges will sentence me to death, or release me, since for this purpose you have been sent here, and appointed by the king." Inquisitor. "I do not wish them to condemn you upon my testimony; nor do I want to judge." Jacques. "My lord, when the judges ask you about me, what will you answer? Will you not say that I am a heretic, and have deserved death?" Inquisitor. "No." Jacques. "My lord, I pray you, what will you say?" Inquisitor. "That you are deceived, and seduced from the right way." Jacques. "To be seduced, to err, or to be a heretic, my lord, appears to me to be all the same thing." Inquisitor. "Well, my son, do not think that I have come here to condemn you to death; for you will be sentenced only upon the confession which you made before the commissary; for, as for myself, I do not wish them to sentence you upon my word; nor would I have anything to do with it." Jacques. "My lord, I have not followed my business so long, and sat in the council for seven or eight years, so that I should not know what this amounts to; but the reason why I tell you this is to warn you not to stain your hands with my blood; for I well know for what purpose you have been sent here." He now arose and went away. We frequently had the words just related together afterwards.

On Monday, the 7th of February, 1558, I was again summoned before the same inquisitor. When I appeared before him, he greeted me, and asked:

"How are you; do you still have the fever?" Jacques. "I am well, the Lord be praised for it; the fever left me three weeks ago, or thereabouts." Inquisitor. "How are you at ease in your conscience?" Jacques. "Very well, the Lord be praised for it."

He then made a long speech, too long to be briefly related, the sum and substance of which was that he urged me very much to return to the holy Catholic church, and to believe as becomes a good Christian, without investigating such high things, and wanting to be so wise. Then I replied: "I investigate nothing but what I am permitted to believe; and I am well content simply to believe what a good Christian is bound to believe." Sirach 3, verse 21. Inquisitor. "You do say that you want to believe as a good Christian, and yet you have a heretical faith." Jacques. "I have no such faith; but my faith is founded only upon the pure Word of God; and if you were content with the Word of God, you would also be satisfied with my faith." Inquisitor. "True, you quote the Word of God; but in your heart you understand it differently." Jacques. "As we believe, so we speak; and since we present to you the Scriptures, which are the Word of God, as a testimony of our faith, why are you not satisfied with it? For it belongs to God alone, and not to men, to search the heart." Inquisitor. "What, then, do you believe concerning Jesus Christ; where did He take His flesh from?" Jacques. "Do the Scriptures teach you that you must ask me this?" Inquisitor. "Because Menno says that He brought His flesh from heaven." Jacques. "I have not heard him say this." Inquisitor. "Yet he believes it." Jacques. "Menno's belief is that the Word was made flesh, according to the testimony of John 1, verse 14, or as the text in your Testament reads: became flesh." Inquisitor. "What do you believe concerning it?" Jacques. "I believe that Christ is the Son of the living God." Inquisitor. "Where did He take His flesh from?" Jacques. "I do not know, except that He is born of the Father." Inquisitor. "Do you not believe that He took His flesh in the womb of the virgin Mary?" Jacques. "My lord, if you can prove to me that Jesus and His apostles compelled anyone to confess this, I will also confess it to you; for when Peter confessed Christ, that He was the Son of the living God, Christ did not ask him of whom He was made, but said that upon this rock He would build His church. Matthew 16, verse 18. Again, when Candace's eunuch said to Philip that he believed that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and desired to be baptized upon this faith, Philip was satisfied, without inquiring where He had taken His flesh from." Acts 8, verse 36. Inquisitor. "It was not necessary at that time to make such inquiry, since no difficulty existed yet concerning the matter." Jacques. "What need is there now?" Inquisitor. "Because there are so many heretics." Jacques. "There were enough heretics also in the days of the apostles; but the reason is this, that Satan always raises some vain controversy, to corrupt men's understanding, and to draw them into error." Inquisitor. "Then you will not confess that He took His flesh and blood in the virgin?" Jacques. "I will not investigate what is above my understanding, namely, of what the Son of God was made; for this was a miraculous work. However, so that you may not think me a heretic, I confess Him to be the Son of God in every manner, in power and might, in spirit, in flesh and blood, begotten of the own substance of one only Father, namely, the eternal God, as the Scriptures testify to us; who was with the Father from eternity; and when the time of the promise was fulfilled, the eternal Word became flesh, and was conceived in a virgin, of the Holy Ghost, and born of the said virgin Mary." Inquisitor. "He assumed His flesh from, and was made of, our flesh; will you say nothing with regard to this?" Jacques. "I am satisfied to believe about it according to the Scriptures, without further investigation." Inquisitor. "Do not the Scriptures say that He took upon Him our flesh?" Jacques. "I have never read it, and I do not wish to dispute further; besides, you said that you would not dispute about it; why then do you ask me so much about it?" Inquisitor. "In order to see whether your faith is not like the faith of Menno Simons." Jacques. "You have heard that I do not receive the testimony of men as a foundation for my faith."

Perceiving that he could get nothing else out of me, he asked me: "What is your determination?" Jacques. "I have declared my faith to you, and on that I have made my determination, until the contrary is proved to me." Inquisitor. "I have proved it to you sufficiently; but you will believe nothing but your fancy and obstinacy, and have forsaken the holy church." Jacques. "My lord, I have not forsaken the holy church; for if I had recognized your church as the holy church, I would not have forsaken it to join another." Inquisitor. "Nevertheless, though Satan has thus deceived you, and you think that we are not the holy church, yet it is the same that it has always been from the times of the apostles, and has been maintained through the holy teachers until the present time." Jacques. "If it is the same church which existed at the time of the apostles, it must have the same or similar bishops and pastors as there were then." Inquisitor. "Yes, and so we have." Jacques. "Well then, my lord, show me in your whole church only one bishop or pastor who is blameless in doctrine and life, even as Paul, or Timothy, or Titus, and I will follow him with all my heart." Inquisitor. "Do you have such pastors among you?" Jacques. "My lord, you say that we are Satan's congregation, and that your church is the same which was in the time of the apostles; therefore show me those people, so that I may know them." Inquisitor. "Where do you think you will find such? For they had the Holy Ghost, who is not given now." Jacques. "Not? How is it then that Paul says that he who does not have the Spirit of God is none of His?" Romans 8, verse 9. Inquisitor. "This has another meaning." Jacques. "My lord, what meaning?" Inquisitor. "He there speaks of those who do not walk after the Spirit." Jacques. "Well, what else do I ask of you than bishops and pastors who walk and are led by the Spirit of God, who are holy, just, vigilant, and blameless in doctrine, in life and conversation, as Paul teaches that they must be." Inquisitor. "I could easily name such bishops or pastors as are blameless, but you do not know them." Jacques. "Where are they?" Inquisitor. "In Italy and in Spain." Jacques. "Is the church of God there, and not here?" Inquisitor. "There is also a cardinal or bishop in England, who truly is a man blameless in doctrine and conversation." Jacques. "My lord, please release me from these chains, and let me go, and I will use all diligence to get to him, to see whether it is true."

He laughingly replied: "No, no; you must believe what is told you." Jacques. "My lord, it is written

'Cursed be the man who trusts in man.' Jeremiah 17, verse 5. Shall I depend upon your word alone?" Inquisitor. "Do you think that I lie?" Jacques. "I do not say that; but I want to see it first before I believe it." Inquisitor. "Yes, yes, but you cannot now." Jacques. "Since I cannot see it, I cannot believe it either." Inquisitor. "Why will you pay so much attention to their conversation, seeing that they have the doctrine of the apostles?" Jacques. "This is yet to be proved to me, and it would be difficult for you to prove to me by the Scriptures that they have the doctrine of the apostles." Inquisitor. "Nevertheless they have it; but you are hardened, and cannot comprehend it." Jacques. "This assertion lacks the support of the Scriptures, and if they are trees from the roots of the apostles, show me the fruits, that I may know them." Inquisitor. "Can you then know the faith by the works, whether it is good or bad?" Jacques. "My lord, our Master has taught us that we shall know the false prophets by their fruits (Matthew 7, verse 16); for when we find grapes on the vine, we dare not say, as you people do, that we have plucked them from thorns."

He laughingly said to me: "Do we say that?" Jacques. "Do you not? Do you not say that we are evil, vile and useless trees, that must be cast into the fire? And yet you have confessed to me that our fruits are good, but that it is our faith." Inquisitor. "It is true, you do good works before men; but the inward is good for nothing, for your faith is not good." Jacques. "Our works spring from our faith; the vessel cannot give forth anything but what is in it; hence the Lord calls those a generation of vipers, who confessed that the fruit was good, and the tree corrupt, saying: 'Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt.'" Luke 6, verse 45; Matthew 12, verse 34. Inquisitor. "Therefore you would say that our bishops and pastors can have no good faith, unless their works are good." Jacques. "My lord, I can answer with Paul: 'They profess that they know God; but in works they deny Him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unfit for every good work' (Titus 1, verse 16); and such pastors I will not follow." Inquisitor. "No, no, Jacques, they are not so abominable as you think, though they are also sinners, even as we all are." Jacques. "My lord, you know better than you say; for I would be ashamed to uncover the shameful acts of this people, who boast of being the light and salt of the earth, and the leaders of the blind and ignorant." Inquisitor. "What shameful acts? Tell me freely." Jacques. "My lord, since you want me to tell you, you know very well yourself what unnatural whoredom, too shameful to mention, such as was committed by Sodom and Gomorrah, those of Rome commit: namely, the pope, who boasts of being a holy man, and God upon earth, and the cardinals and bishops that are there; to say nothing of the pride, pomp and wickedness of which these holy people are guilty." Inquisitor. "It is true that there are some who commit great abomination before God, so that it is abominable of some; but, Jacques, we must not condemn the good on account of the bad; they are not all bad; there are also some who are righteous." Jacques. "I believe that the righteous are thinly sown; for from my youth I have lived mostly among priests, canons and monks, and it would be a shame to relate the abounding wickedness which I have seen there." Inquisitor. "My son, not all, not all." Jacques. "My lord, so far as I have ever seen and known, I do not know that I have seen a single one walk after the rule prescribed to a bishop or pastor, even as you know better yourself what occurred two or three weeks ago in this city of N. in the convent of the Jacobines."

The monks of the Jacobines had driven their prior out of the convent, because he had reproved them for their licentiousness and wickedness.

Inquisitor. "Jacques, though there have been wicked popes, cardinals, bishops, priests, and monks, there have, on the other hand, also been good ones; do you not know that the good grain is not without chaff? No, no, there are good grains and good pastors, though you do not know them." Jacques. "Show me then but a single upright pastor, such as I demanded of you, according to the Scriptures, and I will follow him." Inquisitor. "Even if I should name them to you, you do not know them anyway, and will not believe me; but even if it were true, namely, that they are wicked, yet they have the true faith." Jacques. "I hold to the testimony of Paul, that light has no communion with darkness." Second Corinthians 6, verse 14. Inquisitor. "Do you mean to say then, that a man who commits evil works cannot have the true faith?" Jacques. "If a man who has received knowledge gives himself up to the commission of wickedness, his faith will not last long, or will soon be darkened." Inquisitor. "Who has told you this?" Jacques. "Paul writes to the Romans that some held the truth in unrighteousness, since that which might be known of God, God had shown them; and though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were they thankful; therefore God gave them up to the lusts of their hearts, filled with darkness." Romans 1, verse 18. Inquisitor. "Paul speaks there of the philosophers, who turned to the heavens, stars, planets, and so on, for guidance." Jacques. "It is all the same to me of whom he speaks, philosophers or others; but Paul shows that through their works and ingratitude their hearts were filled with darkness. Moreover, he also says: 'Because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved, . . . for this cause God shall send them strong delusions;' which also came to pass." Second Thessalonians 2, verses 10 and 11. Inquisitor. "Did not Judas Iscariot commit a wicked work in delivering up the Son of God?" Jacques. "The Scripture says that it would have been better if he had not been born." Matthew 26, verse 24. Inquisitor. "Yet he had a true faith; what do you say to this?" Jacques. "Did he have a true faith before or afterwards?" Inquisitor. "Before and also afterwards, though he was a thief." Jacques. "Though his heart was wicked, yet his walk was good, so that they did not dare think that it was he who should commit the deed, but all asked: 'Is it I? Is it I?' " Mark 14, verse 19. Inquisitor. "Look also at Demas: did he not have the true faith? Yet his heart was bound up in things of this world; nevertheless, Paul regarded him as a brother." Colossians 4, verse 14. Jacques. "It is true that Paul regarded him for a time as a brother and companion in the work of the Lord; but afterwards he said that Demas had forsaken him, having loved this present world, and no longer calls him a brother or companion." Second Timothy 4, verse 10. Inquisitor. "That you do not know." Jacques. "The Scriptures say nothing about it." Inquisitor. "That proves nothing either way; you must believe that a sinful man can have the faith and the Gospel; do you think that we must therefore not hear him, and believe his word?" Jacques. "My lord, of what sin do you reprove Paul, after he had received the knowledge of the truth?" Inquisitor. "Is it not written: 'He who says that he has no sin makes God a liar'?" First John 1, verse 10. Jacques. "True, but it is also written in the same epistle: 'Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.' First John 3, verse 9. And Paul said: 'How shall we, who are dead to sin, live in sin?'" Romans 6, verse 2. Inquisitor. "Paul there simply asks a question; but do you therefore think that he did not sin?" Jacques. "You know that Paul said that Christ was living in him; did Christ then commit sin? Galatians 2, verse 20. He also exhorts the Corinthians to follow him, even as he had followed Christ, and calls God and men to witness how holily and justly and blamelessly he had walked among them. First Corinthians 11, verse 1; First Thessalonians 2, verse 10. Of what sin then, my lord, will you accuse Paul?" Inquisitor. "Nevertheless, he was a sinner; this you certainly cannot deny." Jacques. "I do not want to deny it; for he says himself that he was the chief of sinners, blasphemers and persecutors while in unbelief, but not after he had received the knowledge [of the truth]. First Timothy 1, verse 15. Well then, what I ask you for are pastors who are blameless in life, doctrine and conversation; for I well know that all men are born in sin; but he who abides in sin has not known God." Psalm 51, verse 5; First John 3, verse 6. Inquisitor. "You must not understand the passage in that way; for a sinful man does have knowledge of God." Jacques. "Yes, with the mouth: or it would not be true what the apostle Peter has said, that he who does not have the fear of God, and brotherly and living love, is blind, and gropes with his hand for the way." Titus 1, verse 16; Second Peter 1, verse 9. Inquisitor. "No, he says that he is like the blind." Jacques. "My lord, with your permission, he says that such a blind man gropes for the way, which is a sign that he has not found it; now, shall I follow such people?" Inquisitor. "Your Menno, is he so just, holy and blameless?" Jacques. "I have not had enough dealings with him to find anything blamable in him." Inquisitor. "With whom then have you had your dealings? Can nothing be said of your teacher? Is he unblamable?" Jacques. "My lord, can you produce anything against him, or accuse him of anything?" Inquisitor. "I do not know the rascal." Jacques. "Then do not defame him; for you would find it a difficult task to prove that he is what you call him." Inquisitor. "This would not be difficult for me to do; for he has seduced enough people to be called this." Jacques. "My lord, take care that you are not yourself one who seduces the people." Inquisitor. "Is he not a native of a certain village in Zealand?" He named the village, but I have forgotten it. Jacques. "I do not know where he was born." Inquisitor. "What did the man look like? What sort of beard and clothes did he have?" Jacques. "My lord, you are certainly inquiring very diligently for him; I think you would like to betray him; do you know no other way, my lord?" Inquisitor. "I wish him no harm." Jacques. "I hear that you say so; nevertheless, you would like to have him here in my place, would you not, my lord?" Inquisitor. "Yes, if he would become converted." Jacques. "And if he would not be converted to your views, would you not put him to the stake?" Inquisitor. "I would leave this to the judge." Jacques. "Well, would you not then wish him harm? Would you want to have this done to you?"

Seeing that he could not answer me, and that two or three persons were listening at the door, besides the jailer, who is always with the prisoners, he began to give me a long talk, saying that I must not inquire so deeply into the Scriptures, but let myself be instructed by those more learned than I, and that I must believe that a sinful man, of wicked life, could have faith as well as another, and that I must hear his words, but not do according to his works. Jacques. "Must I believe this by the Scriptures, or without the Scriptures?" Inquisitor. "I have proved it to you by the Scriptures." Jacques. "By what Scriptures?" Inquisitor. "By the cases of Judas and Demas, who had faith, and yet were wicked of life." Jacques. "My lord, it appears to me that our words are mere child's play; have I not replied to this, and proved to you, that it does not become us to take those who have apostatized from the faith as leaders and pastors?" Inquisitor. "Where do you expect to find blameless pastors such as you demand? Do you not see that the world is full of knavery?" Jacques. "If you do not know any, I know some, and such I will follow." Inquisitor. "Where are they?" Jacques. "They are unknown to you; do you not know that when the prophet thought that all the righteous in Israel had been slain by Ahab and Jezebel, the Lord said that there were seven thousand left yet, who had not bowed their knees to the idol Baal." First Kings 19, verse 10. Inquisitor. "It was because of the persecution raging at that time that they were so scattered." Jacques. "So it is still at the present day, on account of persecution, that they are scattered, and unknown to the world." Inquisitor. "But must you, for a Menno, or any other single individual who seems to lead a good life, must you therefore follow him, and forsake all the other bishops and pastors, who do not walk just as uprightly?" Jacques. "My lord, do you think that if Ahab, the King of Israel, had forsaken the counsel of the four hundred prophets, and followed the single advice of poor Micaiah, he would have done amiss?" Inquisitor. "Certainly not; for Micaiah was a prophet of God." Jacques. "Did not the others say that they were too? And did they not strike poor Micaiah on the cheek, because he prophesied against them, and say to him: 'Do you think that the Spirit of God has departed from us?'" Inquisitor. "They boasted of the Holy Spirit, but falsely; for they did not have Him?" Jacques. "Ahab did not know that; for because Micaiah had alone prophesied against the four hundred prophets, the poor man of God was cast into prison on scanty bread and water, till Ahab should return from the battle at Ramoth gilead; but he found that the counsel of the four hundred prophets cost him his life, as Micaiah had foretold him." Inquisitor. "The events recorded in these passages occurred in former times." Jacques. "Paul says that all was written for our learning; and the same things still happen at the present day." Romans 15, verse 4. Inquisitor. "Well then, you will not hear or follow any pastors, unless they practice what they teach?" Jacques. "No; for it is written: 'The light of the body is the eye; if your eye is evil, your whole body shall be full of darkness.'" Matthew 6, verse 22. Inquisitor. "Then you will not follow the advice of Jesus Christ, namely, to do according to their words, and not according to their works." Jacques. "To whom does He say this?" Inquisitor. "To His disciples." Jacques. "Of whom does He say it?" Inquisitor. "Jesus Christ says: 'The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat: therefore all that they tell you to observe, that observe and do; but do not do according to their works.'" Matthew 23, verses 1 and 2. Jacques. "What kind of seat was it, wooden or stone?" Inquisitor. "It was the seat that was there." Jacques. "How could so many people sit in one seat? Was it so large? Or was it not the law Christ alluded to?" Inquisitor. "It is the same thing, the law which they proclaimed." Jacques. "The law was a command of God, and not of men, and when Christ said this, He did not choose them to feed or lead His flock." Inquisitor. "When He said: 'Do according to their words, and not according to their works,' did He not appoint them pastors?" Jacques. "Have you not read what the Lord says: 'Unless your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.' Matthew 5, verse 20. Behold, here they are already excluded; how then shall they lead others?" Inquisitor. "Do only according to their words." Jacques. "Have you no other pastors among you, to proclaim the Word of God, than such scribes and Pharisees, whom God has threatened with so many curses? Does not the prophet say: 'Blessed is the man that has not sat among the ungodly'? Psalm 1, verse 1. And Christ admonishes us to beware of their leaven." Matthew 16, verse 6. Inquisitor. "You must not understand it that way, but believe that an ungodly man can indeed speak good things." Jacques. "It is written: 'Praise is not seemly in the mouth of the ungodly, because they are not sent of God.' Sirach 15, verse 9. 'And how shall they preach, unless they are sent?'" Romans 10, verse 15. Inquisitor. "It is true, it is not seemly, but he does not say that it is not good." Jacques. "If it is not seemly, then it is not acceptable; for what repentance can an impenitent man proclaim? For if a thief admonishes his companion not to steal any more, will his word have any effect? Will not his companion say: 'If it is wrong to do it, why do you do it yourself?' Romans 2, verse 21. You hypocrites, cast the beam out of your own eyes, and then you shall see clearly the dust in my eyes." Matthew 7, verse 5. Inquisitor. "You pervert every Scripture into the contrary, according to your own notion and understanding; you must not build upon yourself so much, but subject your understanding to the understanding of those who are wiser than you are." Jacques. "My lord, I always speak, with your permission, that if anything better is proved to me, I will follow it."

He arose and said: "It is time for me to go; see that you consider the matter well, and pray diligently to God." Jacques. "I know of nothing to consider, since you cannot prove to me anything different." Inquisitor. "What should I prove to you?" Jacques. "I have asked you to show me what pastors I must follow, and whether they are such as the Scriptures decree that they ought to be in life, doctrine and conversation." Inquisitor. "Follow those whom your parents followed." With that he left me.

Here I finished writing, because I was at last surprised by many persons and gainsayers.

This confession of Jacques was translated from the French into the Dutch.

"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceedingly glad; for great is your reward in heaven; for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you" (Matthew 5, verses 11 and 12).