Joos Kindt, in the Year 1553

Grace be with you, and peace, from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ; may He comfort and strengthen us with His Holy Spirit, that we may be able to stand against the assaults of the devil, who, as Peter says, walks about us like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour, and resist him with a firm faith. Know then, dear friends, that I have such a conflict against the carnal lords, since they assail me with their sophistries, seeking to draw me from the obedience of our dear Lord; but I trust that the Lord will help me, and I do not doubt it; for God, comforting His own, says through the prophet Isaiah (chapter 49, verse 15): “Though a mother forsake her child, yet I will not forsake you;” which the Lord shows in me in a wonderful way; let every tongue praise Him. Indeed, if I had as much paper as I have ever written on, and time to write, I could not describe the joy and gladness I feel; indeed, my joy is beyond words.

But N. is sick, and asks that you would earnestly beg the Lord for him; for he is ready to go into the fire, but he cannot resist the enemies of the cross; for they assail him with sophisms, since their teacher, the devil, knows much sophistry, which he showed when he came to tempt our Savior in the wilderness, as is written in the Gospel. Now, if he employed his sophistry on our Savior, I am not cast down, though I have a little conflict; for, dear friends, they could easily be resisted if they used arguments, but they assail him entirely with lies. Since their father is a liar, as our Savior also told them, they have the nature of their father, which they showed in part toward me, all of which I cannot tell you; but I hope that the Lord will give me so much grace that I may write a little about the disputation with the carnal.

Know then, that Ronse and Polet came into the prison on Saturday afternoon, and summoned me before them. When I came to them, I asked them what they wanted of me. They replied: “This will be told you.” They asked how old I was. I replied: “That I do not know; if you want correct information on that point, you must ask my mother.”

Ronse. “Tell us as nearly as you know.”

Joos. “Between twenty and thirty years.” Then their clerk wrote: “Between thirty and forty.”

Ronse. “When were you last at confession?”

Joos. “Why do you ask this?”

Ronse. “I want to know it.”

Joos. “Did you not have me arrested? You know well enough how it is with me.”

Answer. “We do.”

Joos. “Whose are you, or in whose name have you come to me?”

Answer. “In the name of God.”

Joos. “I do not believe this.”

Question. “Why?”

Joos. “Because you have arrested me, to find out how it is with me; for all those whom the Lord sent out to teach imprisoned no one; for He sent them out and commanded them that if they came to a place and were not received, they should shake the dust off their feet and leave that place.” Matthew 10, verse 14.

Polet. “You have surely read that Paul delivered some over to the devil.” First Corinthians 5, verse 5.

Joos. “Show me where Paul put them in prison; this I want to learn from you.”

Polet. “I do not know.”

Joos. “Why then do you undertake to quote Scriptures to anyone, when you do not understand them yourself? Indeed, more than that, to arrest people, to bring them to the faith, even if your faith were good, which I do not hold to be the case, for I do not believe that you are from God.”

Question. “Why?”

Joos. “Because the Lord says: ‘I will have obedience, and not sacrifice’ (First Samuel 15, verse 22); and because you do not obey Him.”

Question. “In what way?”

Joos. “Because Christ commanded that the erring be pointed to the right way; now, you say that I have gone astray; why then did you not show me what is right? For I seek nothing but what is right.”

Answer. “For this purpose we have come.”

Joos. “Then you should have come to the place where I lived.”

Answer. “We did not know where you lived.”

Joos. “You knew it well enough to send the bailiff.”

Answer. “Had you been a good sheep, it would not have been necessary.”

Joos. “Christ left the ninety-nine, and went to seek what was lost.”

Then Ronse said: “Do you not believe that I am appointed your superior, by our holy father, the pope, and our gracious lord, the Emperor?”

Joos. “I know no superior except Christ.”

Question. “How? Do you not recognize the Emperor at all?”

I told him that I was quite content to have him be my superior according to the flesh. Then they wrote that I recognized no superior according to the spirit except Christ, and the Emperor according to the flesh.

Ronse then said: “When were you last at confession? Tell me this.”

Joos. “I do not wish to speak to you here.”

Question. “Why?”

Joos. “I shall speak before the lords in full court.”

“There,” they said, “it would be at the risk of your life, if you should say anything of importance. Tell me,” he said, “what do you think of infant baptism?” Being urged to speak, I replied: “Nothing.”

Ronse. “Indeed, in what baptism then do you believe?”

Joos. “I know of only one faith, and one baptism.”

Ronse. “How long since you were baptized?”

Joos. “Half a year, or about that.” This they noted down.

Question. “What do you hold concerning the Roman church?”

Joos. “I do not hold the least article of all they hold.”

This was also written down. They asked me so much that I said to them: “I have freely confessed my faith, and am ready to go alive into the fire for it; so be content that you know my faith.” They asked a great deal. I said: “Go away from me; I regard you as enemies of the cross of Christ; so go away from me, for you know the ground of my faith, which I have freely confessed to you. Therefore do to me what you please; for it is through the grace of the Lord that I have these limbs, and by the grace of the Lord I am also ready to give them up, indeed, to offer them for His holy praise.” Second Maccabees 7, verse 11. They spoke much, but I said: “Go away from me, and come no more where I am, for you are against God. Matthew 12, verse 30. Do you not fear the Lord? See what is written in Matthew 13, about the tares of the field. Now since you say that I am evil, the Lord has commanded that it be left to grow until the harvest.”

Answer. “If we were to let it grow up, you would corrupt us all.”

Polet. “Does not Augustine say”

Joos. “Don’t speak of Augustine, for I do not know him; I hold no doctrine except that of the apostles and prophets, and of the words our Savior brought from high heaven, from the mouth of His heavenly Father, and sealed with His precious blood; for this I want to go into the fire; but Augustine, Gregory, Ambrose, these I do not know.”

Ronse. “Indeed, do you not believe that our blessed Savior is concealed in the holy sacrament?”

Joos. “I do not believe this.”

Ronse. “Where then is He?”

Joos. “At the right hand of His heavenly Father, and at the last He will come down with the glory of His Father, to judge the living and the dead. Fear this strict judgment, and change your ways; put on sackcloth and clothing of hair; repent, and go to the people, whom you keep running after your false worship; warn them, for you murder their souls, since you say that you have the key of the kingdom of heaven, from the time of Saint Peter, and that it has always remained in your possession. Christ says well that you have the key, and that you will not enter yourselves, and that you hinder those who want to go in.” Matthew 23, verse 13.

Ronse. “Who baptized you? Did Jelis the Baptist baptize you?”

Joos. “You know how it is with me; be satisfied.”

Polet. “It was Adam Pastor.”

Ronse. “Or David Joris.”

I kept silent.

Ronse. “Joos, tell me, who were your sponsors?”

Joos. “I know of no sponsors.”

Ronse. “Your witnesses?”

Joos. “I have told you that it took place; so be content with that; for I have such confidence in the Lord that I trust He will keep the door of my mouth, so that I shall tell you nothing, though you should tear me to pieces.”

They asked me a great deal. I said: “Go away from me; for you are not of God.” They replied: “We are.” I said: “Away! Go away from me, go from me, and come no more where I am.” Much more yet took place, but it would take too long to write it. Finally they went away, and I was led back into my cell.

On Sunday I was taken to the house of the judges, where the court was assembled. There were also present Salome, Sir Cornelis, Dean of Kestenne, Ronse, and Polet. I was placed in the middle, firmly bound and held by two thief catchers. I said: “My lords, what is your wish?”

Ronse. “This will be told you.”

They then read the confession of my faith, which they had written down in prison, and asked me whether I was still of the same mind. I replied:

“Yes; I am still ready to go into the fire for it.” Ronse asked whether I did not believe that Christ had taken His flesh from Mary. I said: “No.” Then it seemed as though Sir Cornelis would faint away; he blessed and crossed himself much, and all were horrified. There was a little discussion about it; but they, like dragons, breathed their poison into the judges, each taking a judge, and said: “True, it is written so; but he does not have the understanding; the Scriptures must be understood.” And they brought forward many far-fetched sophisms, and filled the ears of the lords, and asked me many sophistical questions. I said: “I have confessed my faith to you; be satisfied with it; and I beg you, not that I am worthy of it, but by the crimson blood of our dear Lord, leave me in peace; you have my faith, and you hold me in your hands here; be satisfied, and do what you please.”

Then Ronse asked me whether I had not been present somewhere, and adjured me three times by my baptism to tell who was present. I told him that I would not tell him one word. Ronse said: “You have denied your baptism; Menno will take it ill that you deny your baptism.” I said:

“My faith and baptism I know, but with your adjuration I have nothing to do; by it I know that you are sorcerers.” Then Polet said: “We may swear.” I replied: “See Matthew 5, whether he does not forbid swearing altogether.” They said:

“No.” I said: “Yes.” Then Polet looked into a Bible which they had brought with them, a large book, and it read there just as I had said.

Then Sir Cornelis said: “The Bible is false; our Latin Bible reads differently.” I said: “Do you bring false books to me? Why do you say it is false? And it is privileged; why then do you let them circulate with privilege, since you examine them?” [n748-2] He replied: “I did not examine them.” I said: “Some of the learned men at Louvain.” Then Ronse whispered to Sir Cornelis Roose and said: “It is true, they are examined, and were good, but the printer had a boy who misprinted them, while his master had gone to town. Ronse asked me how it was that I so easily believed a man whom I would perhaps never see again, and let myself be baptized by him; and that I would not believe them, whom I saw daily, indeed, those who were present and had instructed me at this time and before, as they said, and why I would not believe my pastor, who preached the Gospel daily. I replied [that I did not believe him] because he was a liar, and that I had heard him preach that it could nowhere be found written that Mary was a mother and a virgin. But (he said) because their church taught it, therefore it had to be believed. Therefore, said I, I will not listen to him, since I had read the contrary in Isaiah (chapter 7, verse 14), and in Matthew and in other places. Having heard lies come out of your mouth in this way, after that I listened neither to you nor to any other, and I hope by the grace of the Lord I never shall.” He said: “No.” I said:

“Yes, and I offer my body to the rack, against yours.” But he had no desire for it, and said:

“What! Should I go to the rack? You claim that our church is not good, because we are not blameless; are you blameless? There are some of your people who have committed murder, because men would not believe them, no, would not hold to their doctrine.” I said: “Did you see this in me, or anything else that is unseemly? I am here in the hands of the judges; let them punish me for it.” Ronse said: “We know nothing of this kind about you.” I said: “Then do not tell me what another does, nor consider me bad because of the misdeeds of others. No one is to bear the burden of another; you are not to bear mine, nor I yours. The soul that sins, it shall die.” Galatians 6, verse 5; Ezekiel 18, verse 20.

Much more yet was said by them, but it is not worthwhile to write it. They also said that Christ had said that the scribes and the Pharisees sat in Moses’ seat, and that He had commanded us to do according to their commandments, but not according to their works; so, said they, do what we advise you, but do not follow our works, since Christ teaches this. Matthew 23, verses 1 and 2. I asked: “Who did Christ say sat in Moses’ seat?” Answer. “The Pharisees.” I asked again: “Does this Scripture belong to you?” Answer. “Yes.” I said: “Then you confess that you are of their generation?”

Then Sir Cornelis, the parish priest, asked me why I did not believe in one article of the Roman church. I surely believed that Christ was crucified, which the Roman church also believes, and which was certainly an article; and why I believed that Matthew’s Gospel was gospel, which was nowhere written; [he also said that] he would show me that Paul wrote before the evangelists. I then said:

“Show me that Paul wrote before Matthew.” Sir Cornelis said: “What have you to do with that?” I replied: “Should I have nothing to do with it? My life and soul are at stake, according to what you say.” Sir Cornelis said: “He is overcome.” I said:

“Be silent, you are not worthy of being spoken to, and see that you do not say in my absence that you overcame me, or that I have the devil in me, or condemn me among the simple people, and deceive them still more.” Then Ronse said: “You are damned, if you remain like this.” I said: “Why?” Ronse replied: “Because you do not believe.” I said:

“I do believe, and I hold so firmly to my faith that I would rather go into the fire than break a single point of it.”

Much more took place which would be too long to write. Finally I was led back into prison, where two shackles were put on me. I said: “I am ready, not only to let myself be shackled, but also to die the most shameful death for the name of the Lord.” Acts 21, verse 13.

On Monday Polet and the fat monger came, and asked me how it was with me. I told them that it had never been better, for which I praised the Lord. They said that they were very glad of it. Polet then said: “Joos, how can your cause and your church be good? The Germans have a congregation, and the English have one; but where are the members of your congregation? You alone are not a church. Let us hear whether you are also a flock, and who your members are.” Then I said five or six times: “Get behind me, and depart from me, Satan;” whereupon they both ran away. Then I said: “Now you speak; at the judgment another shall speak.” So I saw them no more. I have heard that I am to be severely tortured; for they expect to get all the particulars from me; but I trust the Lord, that He will keep my lips. So pray the Lord for me, that He will help me, for they thirst for much blood; but they can do no more than the Lord permits them. Therefore I commend myself into the hands of the Lord; and anything you may hear which is not in this letter, regard as lies. As a token of the truth I hope to seal this letter with my blood. To this end may God give His grace, that His name may be praised by it.