Various Examinations of Reytse Aysess before the Commissary, Pastors, Priests

On the sixth day they brought me before the commissary, and as I went there an old man met me, who wished me "good evening." I returned the greeting, but I was frightened when I saw him. But he said to me: "You have a bad commissary" ; and he talked with me much more, and instructed me how I should answer the commissary; and so I went in.

The commissary wished me "Good day," and I wished him the same. He then asked me: "What is your business here?" I replied: "I have been brought here against my will." He further asked what I believed. Answer. "I believe in God almighty; and that there is but one Lord, one faith, and one baptism, by which we can be saved." He said that he also believed that, but that I had been seduced. I said

"Is God then a seducer?" Commissary. "No; but you have been seduced by Menno and other seducers." I said that I did not rely on men, but on the word of the Lord. He said that I should let myself be instructed by the holy Catholic Church, since God Himself had ordained apostles, doctors [teachers] and pastors. I said that I believed nothing but the Word of God and the New Testament. He then asked me whether I was baptized. I said: "Yes, upon my faith, as Christ has commanded." He then made a long speech, that Christ had received flesh and blood from Mary, and that I must believe this; and we had many other words together. He then asked me when I had last been to confession and the sacrament. I replied: "Never in my life;" and we had many other remarks together. So he admonished me that I should let myself be instructed by the holy church, and then he went away. This happened on Friday.

After I had been in confinement six weeks and a half, they took me to the Poorte, where the pastor of Nyehoof (who was pastor of Enchuysen) was, with an advocate. These asked me what I had determined. I said that I would hold to the word of the Lord. They then produced a letter in which was written all that I had confessed. Then they asked me whether I considered the church of the Mennists a true church. I said: "You call it so, but I regard it as the true church of God." This they wrote down. Then they asked me whether I was baptized upon my faith. I said

"Yes." They also asked me whether I had not been baptized in my infancy. I said: 'Yes; but that was no baptism as Christ commanded, for

Christ taught to repent, amend, and then to be baptized for the remission of sins. See, so I was baptized. " Then they said that infants were born in original sin, and so they had to be cleansed by baptism. I replied: " Christ has redeemed us from the fall and transgression of Adam; therefore He says Himself that to the children belongs the kingdom of heaven. " They said: " Yes, those were circumcised children. " Then they asked whether I had been in the church of the Mennists. I replied that I had been in the church of God. This they wrote down. Question. " What do you hold concerning the Roman church? " Answer. " Nothing. " Question. " What do you hold concerning the sacrament? " Answer. " I have never in all my life read of a sacrament, but of the Lord's Supper; and this I indeed want to observe, as Christ has commanded it; but of yours I think nothing. " Question. " Do you believe that God is almighty? " I said: " Yes. And should God therefore not come into the bread which they break? " Answer. " This I never believed. " They also asked whether I did not believe that Christ had received flesh and blood from Mary. I briefly said that I did not believe it. These are chiefly the articles which they asked me, and they noted down everything. I then asked the Priest: " If I should fulfill your will, would you be willing to be responsible for my soul? " He said: " Yes, for you and the whole world." I said that this was as the apostle says: While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption (Second Peter 2, verse 19). He said that this was not spoken to them. And after some more conversation which we had, they told me to go, and we bade one another farewell for this time.

After I had been in prison seven weeks, I was again taken to the Poorte, into a large hall, where there were three priests, one of whom was the one of Nyehoof, with whom I have often been; the other was a Friesian. These asked me what I had determined on. I replied that by the help of God I would hold to the word of the Lord. He said that it was not the Word of God, and that I had been seduced; he was sorry, because we were both Friesians; "for," he said, "when someone has temporal matters on hand that he does not understand, he seeks advice from those who are wise and knowing in such matters, and lets himself be instructed; so it is necessary that a person also let himself be instructed by wise men of the holy Church, in matters on which eternal salvation depends." Answer. "Whoever rightly instructs me with the word of the Lord, him I will gladly hear; but by your instruction I should be seduced." They said that I was already seduced; but if I would let myself be instructed by the holy church, they would pledge their souls for me at the last day. I replied that they should have enough to do with their own souls. But with them it was a settled thing that I was seduced. So we finally came to infant baptism.

They said that infants were born in original sin. I said: "Christ made us free, and called the children to Him, declaring that to such belongs the kingdom of God." Priest. "Flesh or blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; therefore we must be born of water and of the Spirit; so it follows that infants must be baptized, if they are to be regenerated and inherit the kingdom of God." Reytse. "Children are in the grace of God as long as they are in their ignorance, and they are washed through the blood of Christ; so baptism in their case is vain and to no purpose." Priest. "How do you understand regeneration?" Reytse. "A person must truly repent and amend his life, with a contrite heart confess his sins before God, that he is sincerely sorry for them, and with confidence call to God for forgiveness, and so believe in God's Word and submit to it in all obedience; upon such confession he is to receive baptism for the remission of sins; this certainly cannot be done by infants." Priest. "Nevertheless, infants must be baptized; for the apostles baptized entire households, and there were doubtless children there too." Reytse. "The house of Stephanas devoted themselves to the ministry of the saints, which no children can do." (First Corinthians 16, verse 13). They then asserted that first the apostles, and after them the holy fathers, had instituted it, fifteen hundred years ago. I said that the pope had instituted it, who wanted to improve on Christ. [n1124-2]

Then they were angry, and said that I was seduced, and should plunge my soul and body into perdition. I said they might take my life, but my soul I should save to life eternal. Priest. "What do you think of the holy Roman Church?" Reytse. "I do not believe in it." Priest. "Do you not believe that the priests can forgive sin?" Reytse. "No; for it is God alone that can forgive sin." This they wrote down. Priest. "Do you not believe that God's flesh and blood are in the bread which we break?" Reytse. "No." Priest. "This is clear enough; for Christ says: 'Take, eat; this is my body;' this you cannot contradict." Reytse. "Christ gave His disciples bread to eat and wine to drink, as the evangelists testify, and not His body, for He still sat there bodily at the table with them. And to His disciples who understood His words carnally, as you do, and murmured at it, He said

'The flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak to you, they are spirit, and they are life.' John 6, verse 63. His flesh and blood He gave as a redemption for many, and not that His flesh is to be eaten. He is sitting at the right hand of God His almighty Father, and shall not come from there before He shall judge the living and the dead; so He shall not come under your teeth. " Priest. " Nevertheless Paul says: 'The bread which we break, is it not the body of Christ? And the cup which we bless, is it not the blood of Christ?' so we must believe that God's flesh and blood are in the holy sacrament. " Reytse. " I have not read of a sacrament, but of the Lord's Supper; this I indeed want to observe with the church of God, but yours I do not desire."

They said much more about it, which is too long for me to relate. They esteemed the sacrament so highly that whenever they name it they raise their caps, and they looked sharply at me, because I would not show it reverence too. They also asked me whether I did not believe that Christ had received flesh and blood from Mary. I said that Christ came by His divine power out of heaven, was conceived in Mary through the Holy Ghost, and born of her, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and became like us in all things, except sin, so that He was not born of the blood, nor of the will of the flesh, and did not receive flesh or blood from Mary, which came to pass in such a way that Mary at first could not understand it herself, for she asked the angel: "How shall this be, since I do not know a man?" The angel answered her: "The Holy Ghost shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God." Luke 1, verses 34 and 35. Against this they did not say much. Priest. "Do you not believe that the saints in heaven are to be honored and worshiped?" Reytse. "I indeed desire to honor the saints, for men are honored; but not to worship them. But I want to worship God alone, for it is written: 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve." ' Matthew 4, verse 10. Priest. "What do you believe of purgatory?" Reytse. "I have not read that there is a purgatory; where is it written?" Priest. "In the books of the Maccabees."

He further admonished me that I should let myself be instructed by the holy church, which had stood for fifteen hundred years, while our sect had existed only fifty years, for Menno Symons had first introduced it. Reytse. "From the beginning of the world there were two classes of people, a people of God and a people of the devil. But the children of God have always been persecuted and scattered, so that they have always been in a minority, and sometimes very few in number, so that they had to hide themselves in caves and dens, and since they are not of the world, the world does not know them either; but the ungodly have always been powerful, and have prevailed, and therefore you do not know the children of God, neither did your fathers know them, and you think that they have only now arisen."

They said that I was seduced; their church had always existed from the beginning. I said: "When we shall appear before the judgment seat of Christ, it will be found otherwise; then you will say: These are they whom we had in derision. Oh, how they are now numbered among the children of God." Wisdom 5, verses 3 and 5. They also told me that I should not concern myself with the Scriptures, but simply go to church, and let myself be instructed there, and not be obstinate, since the Scripture says that every word is established in the mouth of two or three witnesses, and so I was bound to believe them. Reytse. "I believe the word of the Lord far more than your testimony; I do not want to depart from it, and hope by the help of God to live and die for it, because Christ says: 'Whoever shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven." ' Matthew 10, verse 32.

We had many other words, which it would take too long to relate. They came at me so with sophistry that if the Lord had not been on my side, I would have had to give way; so that I may well say, "The Lord is my helper, of whom shall I be afraid?" Psalm 56, verse 11.

After I had been in prison nine weeks, I was again taken to the Poorte, where there were two priests and the bishop's commissary; one was the priest of Nyehoof, the other was from the country. When I came to them, I uncovered my head, and greeted them. They first asked me what I had determined, whether I would not amend. I said

"Yes, as much as is in my ability." They then produced a letter, which contained the article which I had previously confessed; this they read to me and asked whether I would hold to it. I said: "Yes." They said that then I was damned, and should plunge soul and body into eternal perdition. Reytse. "How dare you condemn me so dreadfully, when judgment belongs to the Lord?" Priest. "You have offended against the Scriptures, and fallen away from the holy church, which has stood for fifteen hundred years, while your sect has not existed more than forty years; and you have let yourself be rebaptized, though you had been baptized before."

Then we had many words again about baptism; his conclusion was that children which die without baptism are damned forever. Reytse. "And are you not afraid to condemn the innocent children so dreadfully, when Christ has promised them the kingdom of heaven, as long as they remain in their innocence?" Priest. "No one can enter into the kingdom of heaven unless he is first born of water and of the Spirit; so children must be baptized, if they are to be saved; the apostle also baptized many households, where certainly there were children too." Reytse. "So far as the households are concerned, it is written that the house of Stephanas devoted themselves to the ministry of the saints, which is certainly not a work of children. First Corinthians 16, verse 15. And of the house of Cornelius it is written: 'That when Cornelius, the centurion of Caesarea, had called together his friends and kinsmen into his house, he said among other things to Peter: You have done well that you have come. Now therefore we are all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded you by God. And while Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then Peter answered, can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?' Acts 10, verses 33 and 44 to 47. From this you can easily see, if you are not entirely struck with blindness, that this is not spoken of children. Again, Paul preached the word of God to the jailer and to all that were in his house, and after they were baptized he rejoiced with all those that were in his house, that he had come to believe in God (Acts 16, verse 34), which is above the understanding of children, for to understand the preaching of the Word of God, to believe in it, and to rejoice on account of the faith, this is far from children." Then they said that there were many other writings that testified about it; but I did not want to receive any writings except the New Testament, which Christ sealed with His precious blood. Then they asked me whether the children of the heathen and the Turks should also be saved. I said: "Yes, as well as your baptized children." Then they were greatly astonished, and spoke scornfully to me and damned me. One of the priests sat by me, and asked me how I dared speak such words; he knew that I was damned, as surely as he knew that I was sitting by him. I laughingly said: "How could you know it better?" And after many words which we had about infant baptism, I finally said that I believed nothing but what I had confessed. They again asked me whether I did not believe that our Lord is present in the form of bread. I said: "This I do not believe; for He will not come under your teeth." I asked the priest whether he believed it. Then he held out his finger and said that he believed more certainly that God was in the bread than he believed that that was his finger. And after other words which we had together, they got some clean paper and asked me all the articles anew, whether I acknowledged the church of the Mennists as a true church, and how long it was since I had been baptized. I said: About four years. And so on, they asked me all the articles again. I answered them in the same way as before, and they noted down everything exactly, to deliver it to the lords. Finally, when all the remarks had been concluded, they produced a letter, which was the sentence which the bishop had concluded over me, in which they damned me as an unbelieving, disobedient and obstinate heretic, and delivered me into the hands of the secular judges. Since he had sufficiently admonished me, and I would not let myself be instructed, he, like Pilate, took water and washed his hands, and also thought that he was clear of my blood; so I had to expect the sentence, and many other words. Then they told me to go.

After I had been in prison twelve weeks, they led me into the castellan's house, where the bishop was with a councillor, the pastor of Oudenhoof, the pastor of Nyehoof, the pastor of Jorwert, and the bishop's commissary. After they had taken their seats, they called me, and when I came in I took off my hat and sat as a sheep in the midst of a troop of wolves. They looked at me sharply and earnestly; but the Lord my God, in whom I trust, strengthened me and gave me a bold heart, so that I was fearless before them all. The bishop began, and asked me whether I would still continue in the faith. I was silent for a while, for it seemed unnecessary to me to answer that question; but he had so much to say that I was finally compelled to defend myself; for I had resolved not to dispute any more. So I occasionally reproved and contradicted their foolish ignorance, for I was grieved that the truth should be so blasphemed; and so that they should not think that I would listen to them. The sum and substance of what they said was that I was seduced, and that those who had taught me had been seducers, as Menno, who was a vagabond. I said that I did not rely upon Menno, or human doctrine, but only upon the Word of God; in this I desire by the help of the Lord to live and to die. We also had many other words, as about infant baptism. I said: "It is not contained in the Scriptures that the children are to be baptized; if this had been the will of the Lord, He would doubtless have commanded it: but since there is nothing written about it, and neither our Lord Jesus Christ nor His apostles have mentioned it, it is a great presumption that we poor, vain human creatures want to improve it, while it is written that we are not to add to, or take away from, the Lord's commandments: he that does this, upon him eternal woe is pronounced" (Deuteronomy 4, verse 2; Proverbs 30, verse 6; Revelation 22, verse 18).

Finally the bishop said that none of all the articles surprised him so much as this: that I did not believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is now personally man in heaven, just as He was upon earth, with the wounds and stripes which He received from the Jews. This I would not accept because I had not read of it, but I said: "I believe that He is now in the Divinity, sitting at the right hand of the Almighty Father, in His glory, and shall come again with power and majesty, as the Scripture testifies about it." Then the bishop took the Bible, and read the vision which John had seen on the island of Patmos, of one who was like the Son of man; and when he had read it, he closed the book, for it contradicted him. A man can certainly not be of such a nature in his members as John declares of that vision.

They then rehearsed the articles of my faith anew, and I confessed as I had always confessed before; and after they had noted it down, they went away. The councillor said that I had forfeited my life, according to the decree. They then took me back into prison.

I would have related all these matters at length, but my gift is small, and my hand heavy for writing; so I must run over them very briefly.

After I had been imprisoned about thirteen weeks, they led me once more into the castellan's house, where the pastor of Nyehoof was, who again began to say that Christ is now personally in heaven, as He was upon earth, in the same form as we are. I defended myself, and proved it to him from John's Revelation. He said that no one could understand John's Revelation, which surprised me. And in all his remarks he called me brother. I said: [n1124-3] "Why do you call me brother? I do not want to be your brother." He answered that he hoped that we should yet become one fold. And after some more conversation he left me.