Some Examinations of Jan Hendrickss

Since some brothers have asked me to write them something about what the lords asked me concerning my faith, when I was before them, I therefore cannot refuse to write them a little about the answer I gave them, according to the simple fisherman's understanding which the Lord has given me; the bailiff also did not ask me very much or very thoroughly, as you will yet hear. Further, when I had been in confinement forty weeks, on the fifth of June, in the year 1570, if I remember rightly, I was taken down the first time to appear before the lords; and when I entered the sheriff's hall, the judges with the bailiff and also the burgomasters were assembled there. I uncovered my head and wished them good day, and they did the same to me. The bailiff then told me to sit down on a bench, which I did, and then he asked me how old I was. I said that I did not know exactly; "but," I said "you may write twenty-eight years;" and so it was written. "Where were you born?" "At Swartawael." "How long have you lived in the Haven?" I said: "Five years, counting the time I have been confined here." "Yes, that is all the same," said the bailiff.

He then asked me why I had not had my children baptized. I said: "Because I have never read that the apostles baptized infants, nor is it found in the Scriptures." And so it was written: "Jan Hendrickss has confessed to us that he has not had his children baptized, and this because he has never read in the Scriptures that children were baptized." The bailiff then asked me how many children I had, and whether I did not have more than the two whom he had caused to be baptized. I said

"None." "How old are the children?" Answer. "The older is three years, and the other about one year."

Then the bailiff asked me whether I had been aware that children were baptized. I said: "Yes, I have seen it myself." Question. "Why then did you not have your children baptized? Or are you better or wiser than your forefathers?" Answer. "That I have not had my children baptized is because I have never read that infants are baptized." Then they said that whole households were baptized. Answer. "Households are indeed spoken of, but it is written that they all rejoiced that they had come to believe in the Lord, which infants cannot do." This some of the lords admitted. The clerk then asked me where it was forbidden to baptize infants. I asked him where it was forbidden to throw dice. He said that it was forbidden enough, but he could not prove it to me. Then I said: "It is nowhere forbidden; yet everyone knows that it is an evil practice," and they also admitted that it was not good. I further said that the Scriptures do not forbid everything that is evil, and that no one should institute the practice of baptizing infants unless he is able to prove it from the Scriptures. The bailiff then asked me whether I had had myself baptized. Answer. "I had myself baptized once, and I know of only one baptism." Then the bailiff asked me whether I had received more than the baptism administered to me in my infancy. Answer. "I had myself baptized once according to the Scriptures, on the last day of March, '63." Then the bailiff said: "It was in '64; you confessed so to me yourself, when I apprehended you." "It was in '63, I said; but I shall not deny it, whether it is a year more or less." Then the bailiff said: "We may have misunderstood each other" ; and he had it written thus: "Jan Hendrickss had himself baptized on the last day of March, '63, and this according to the Scriptures." "Then you were not very old yet," said the bailiff. "This is true," I said.

He then asked whether I did not know that I was baptized in my infancy. "I have heard it said," I said, "but I do not remember it." "This I do indeed believe" said the bailiff. "What man was it that baptized you, and where was he from, and what was his name?" Answer. "I did not ask him what his name was; I had never seen him, nor have I ever seen him since that time, as far as I know." This was written exactly as I confessed it to them. Question. "Where does he live?" Answer. "I do not know." Question. "Do you not know where he was from?" Answer. "I do not want to tell you this; I do not wish to name anyone." Question. "Why?" Answer. "Because I do not wish to bring anyone into trouble; there are enough in trouble now, and you have trouble enough with us." Question. "Was no one present when you were baptized?" Answer. "Yes." Question. "Who were they, and what were their names?" Answer. "I do not wish to tell." Question. "Where did it occur, and in what place?" Answer. "In Holland." Then the bailiff said: "Holland is large; in what place?" Then I said: "Why do you ask me so much about the place? If I were to tell you the place, you would demand to know still more; but I do not wish to implicate anyone."

Finally I told them the place, and said that it had taken place in Delfshaven. Question. "In what house?" Answer. "I do not wish to tell." Question. "What was the name of the people who were in that house?" Answer. "I do not wish to name anyone." Question. "Why are the people in that house so sacred that they may not be named?" Answer. "If you knew them, you would not leave them in peace; and I do not wish to implicate anyone; you have trouble enough with us." Then the bailiff began to ask how long I had had my wife, and where I had married her. Answer. "About five years," and I told them that I had married her before the Christian church. Question. "Before what church? You certainly did not marry her before the church that stands in Delfshaven?" Answer. "No." And so it was written that I had married her before the Christian church. Question. "Who was present?" Answer. "I do not wish to tell you."

Then the bailiff said that I should name the persons, or he would torture me. Answer. "Sir Bailiff, who taught you this?" Then the bailiff said that he had power to do this with me, and threatened me greatly; and when he heard that I would name no one, he told the clerk to write: "Jan Hendrickss has confessed to us such and such things (such as I told them), but he has named no one, and this because he did not wish to implicate anyone;" and so it was written. When the bailiff had thus interrogated me, and wished me many miles away, I said to them, "I would gladly be in Hitland." Then the bailiff said: "Where is that, where the busses catch the herring?" [n1071-1] "Yes." "I do indeed wish that you were there," said the bailiff, "with all those who are of your persuasion." Then one of the lords, who I was told was a burgomaster, wanted to speak to me about baptism, and asked me whether, if a man should lead a Christian life but did not have himself baptized, he could not be saved; whether it would be an obstacle in the way of his salvation. I replied: "No, otherwise salvation would be by the water; but baptism is a command of Christ, hence it must be practiced." Then I think he said that it was our view that infants ought not to be baptized, and asked me when they were to be baptized, and how old they had to be. Thereupon I replied to him that the Scriptures specify no year, whether they were twenty, or thirty, or fifty, or a hundred: whenever they repented and requested it, it might be done; and so we use it, but not sooner, I said; and so did Christ teach, and the apostles practice it. Then they said that at that time it had to be so, that adults were baptized, but that now the infants must be baptized, for then was the beginning or commencement; this was their pretense. I then asked the burgomaster whether Christ, in Matthew 28 and Mark 16, had not commanded them to go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; and whether the apostles had not done the same, and had first taught the people and then baptized them? This he admitted; for we find, he said, that about five thousand were baptized at one time. Thereupon I think I asked him whether he confessed that adult persons were baptized at that time. "Yes," he said. "Well then, we certainly find clearly enough that the apostles lived more than ten or twenty years in the world, and that they first baptized adult persons, as you confess yourself; and this therefore had to be done so at that time, because it was in the beginning: now, since we find that they lived in the world so long, infants enough must have come into the world in this long period of years;" this he also acknowledged. Then I said: "Now show me once where the apostles in this long time baptized infants, and transferred baptism to infants; for you say that then adult persons had to be baptized, but now infants. If the apostles had wanted to change baptism, or wanted it to be changed, they had time enough themselves, for they were long enough in the world, for Paul says: 'I have not shunned to declare to you all the counsel of God'" (Acts 20, verse 27); but they could not prove it to me. Then the oldest judge said that they would prove it to me, but it was not done; and the same judge said that God created man once, and no more; and He commanded circumcision to Abraham once and no more; and He commanded baptism once, and no more. Answer: "This is true. Now, if God created the man Adam once, and no more, and commanded them circumcision once, and no more, and commanded them baptism once, and no more, and they observed the same, and did not change it, why then have they changed baptism from adult persons to infants?" Then they said: "Who has changed it?" Answer. "The Pedobaptists." [n1071-2] Then they told me and begged me to consider the matter well, that it was not a pleasant thing to be burned. I replied: "I know that well; I have no desire to be burned; it is not pleasant to be burned. If I did not know that I am right, I would rather yield in disgrace than honorably lose my life; for it is no small matter to let oneself be burned at the stake. I am not so desirous of death; I would rather keep my life, if it were God's will." "Yes," said they, "consider it well." Then the bailiff said:

"Jan Hendrickss, you have confessed this to us (and he had my confession read before my eyes, all that I had confessed); now if you will yield, my lords will do their utmost to obtain your release." Answer. "My lords, I am quite willing to be convinced; if you can prove to me that I am wrong, and when I can feel that, I will give up what is evil." That was well, they said, and they told me to ask the Lord for grace, that He would give me a good understanding. "That I will gladly do," said I. This lasted about an hour and a half, after which they had me led up above again. These are the principal questions which they asked me, and which I have remembered, and these are my simple fisherman's answers which I gave, as far as I can remember, for it was written six weeks after I was before the lords; for there was a man confined with us, and for this reason we dared not write. But to write the words exactly as they were spoken would be impossible for me, for my memory is weak.

A few days later I was taken down again before my lord the bailiff and a young priest, the chaplain of the Old Church, and so there were three of us in the sheriff's hall. The priest then began to tell how he had had a conversation with a man, and that they had had many words together about the holy Scriptures, and about this burning and killing, for four priests had recently been put to death in The Hague, and the priests had said to one another that there were many different views in the world about the holy Scriptures, and each one died for his belief, and yet only one was true. This the priest told me, and said to me that they had had many words; and the man had asked the priest to talk with me; so the priest said. I then asked: "What kind of man was it?" "He was of your persuasion," he said, "a sailor, and a man such as you are." Then it occurred to me who it was, but he is not of our persuasion, for I had already heard of him; and so we fell into a lively conversation, and the priest asked me whom I acknowledge as true, for there are so many persuasions. I said: "What do I have to do with another? I have enough to do with myself." He asked whether there was more than one faith that was true. "No," said I. And very many words passed, and the bailiff listened, and greatly strengthened the priest in what he said; and whenever I quoted Scripture against them, the priest was immediately at hand to obscure what I said, so that I could not finish my remarks, and he often said to me: "You are forever coming with the holy Scriptures." "Yes," said I, "with what should I come? I have nothing else." "Yes," said he, "I know well that you always come with the Scriptures, and much with the passage, Second Thessalonians 2, verse 15, where Paul says: 'Mark therefore, dear brothers, and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word or epistle.'" Mark well the term word; by that he often wanted to prove that there was more Scripture than what was written, which we were also bound to observe, as far as I could make out his assertion, for he often made it before I could understand it. But it is only a stumbling block — how can we observe more than what is written? Their sole aim is to obscure the understanding of the Scriptures, since they are well aware that with the Scriptures they will fall short; and they also cannot bear it that we quote the Scriptures of the New Testament, for whenever we do this, their first question is why we quote more from the Testament than from other writers, and how we know that the Testament is true; and they then come with many sophistical questions, which are not edifying, and skip from one thing to another. But when they can find any Scriptures in the Testament that are on their side, these must stand; indeed, then the Word of God must stand forever. For we came to speak of the breaking of bread, where Paul says: "Take, eat; this is my body." First Corinthians 11, verse 24. This language had to stand just as it was. I asked him more than once whether the bread which they gave men was the body of Christ. He said: "Yes; when we have pronounced the words over it, it is His flesh and blood, indeed, soul and body:" what I write is the truth. Then I said: "I have eaten the bread with you people, but I could not feel in my mouth that it became flesh, but it remained bread just as it was."

And we had many words about it. I said that Christ Himself says: "Flesh and blood profit nothing; but the words that I speak are spirit and life." John 6, verse 63. He then came with a sophism, asking whether the flesh of Christ was not good for anything.

So we had many words. I said that it is written that the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, nor is He worshiped with men's hands. Acts 17, verses 24 and 25. "Yes," said the priest, "as though He needed anyone; for He does not need us, but we need Him." Then he asked me what I held about the matter, or something like that. I replied that Paul says, First Corinthians 10, verses 15 to 18: "I speak as to wise men; judge what I say. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we, being many, are one bread and one body; for we are all partakers of that one bread. Behold Israel after the flesh: are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?" So I confess that there is only one communion of Christ, for Paul explains it with a simile, saying: "Behold Israel after the flesh: are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?" "Now, I ask," I said to them, "what was it that Israel ate, the altar or the sacrifices?" They said: "The sacrifices;" but they said it reluctantly. "That is right," said I; "yet they were partakers of the altar: so it is also with those who help to break or eat the bread; they eat only bread, and are yet partakers of the body of Christ." I asked how he would maintain his mass. He brought forward the passage, First Corinthians 11, verse 24: "Do this in remembrance of me." By this he maintained his mass. "Well, there is nothing said about a mass," said I. This was his defense of the mass. I asked him whether a man might be apprehended for his faith. He affirmed it. I said: "Paul certainly says: 'A man who is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject;' but he says nothing about apprehending." Titus 3, verse 10. "It is written," said the priest, "that the magistracy does not bear the sword in vain." "Yes," said I, "for the punishment of the evil, and for the protection of the good; but what evil have I done?" They said: "You have adhered to false doctrine, and attended assemblies that are opposed to the Roman religion, which the king will not tolerate, for he wants to protect his country; for it was seen what those of Munster did; their object was to capture cities, and to deprive the king of his country." Answer. "The Munsterites did wrong; have you heard such things of me? I have never in my life known the Munsterites." "No; but the Munsterites sprang from you." "Well then, it would have been time enough for you to apprehend me when you had heard such things of me; for no one can be justly burned unless he has first done evil himself, and not on account of another." But the priest strenuously defended the authorities in this, that a man might be apprehended for his faith. I said: "Christ certainly said to His servants, when they wanted to root up the tares, that they should not do it, but that they should let both grow together till the day of harvest." Matthew 13, verse 30. The priest said: "But one can go and root up the tares along the edge, without injuring the good." Answer. "Christ commands us not to do it, but to let it grow." But the priest constantly charged it upon the magistracy, that the apprehending was their work, just as though the ministers of the Romish church had been without guilt in the matter. I then asked them whether my lord the bailiff of Delft, who was with us, was a brother and minister in their church. This I asked him many times, but the priest would not give me a clear answer about it, and jumped from one thing to another. However, I did not give up until he made a definite answer, which he did, but with great reluctance. When the bailiff saw that we disputed so warmly, he came and stood before us, and listened closely; then I pressed the matter only the harder. Finally he said: "Yes." "Then you acknowledge him as a brother and minister in your church?" "Yes," said the priest. "Well then, now I ask you to show me where the apostles had magistrates in their church, who protected the faith with fire, water and the sword, as you do." This he could not prove to me, but came with the passage in Acts, chapter 23, where Paul was imprisoned, and more than forty men had vowed neither to eat nor to drink till they should have killed Paul. Paul's sister's son heard this and made it known to Paul, and Paul sent him to the chief captain, so that he should tell it to him. And when the chief captain heard it, he said to two other captains that they should make ready the beasts, and set Paul on them, and bring him safely to Felix the Governor, with two hundred soldiers, seventy horsemen, and two hundred spearmen.

Then I replied: "Paul was then a prisoner, and that magistrate was an unbeliever; but show me once where they had magistrates in their church." "Yes," said the priest, "if unbelievers did this, how much more believers." I asked where the apostles had baptized bells. He said: "We do not baptize bells." "What do you teach them then?" said I. He said that they blessed or exorcised them, if I have remembered his words correctly; "For," said he, "Satan is much in such things;" and he told how he had reigned in the New Church, and that therefore this was done, as he said; and a great deal was said.

I said to him that I had never read that the apostles had magistrates in the church, who protected their faith with the sword; but that I had read that Paul says: "We do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world." Then the priest started up, and asked where this was written. "In Ephesians 6, verse 12," said I. Then he took up his Testament and looked for it, and when he had read it he said: "This Paul says of the devil; he is the prince of this world." I said: "It is the magistracy of this world, who rule the world, for it speaks of principalities and lords of this world." And many words passed between us, the bailiff listening attentively. The priest said our faith had not existed long, but their faith had lasted fifteen hundred years; and though whole countries were falling away from it, he said, whole countries were being converted in India, and many great signs and miracles happened there, even as they happened in the time of Christ, so that the Christians were increasing. Then I said: "Does that happen there, and not here? The church is certainly here in these lands too, and there are pastors in Delft, and in other cities nearby, as well as there." He said it was certainly true. "Yes," said I, "Pharaoh's magicians also imitated what Moses did." "Yes," said the priest, "that was so, but they did not do such things as happened there." Then I said: "Well then, I will bring forward to you still more: we read that there was a sorceress, who caused Samuel to come forth from the grave, and Samuel talked with her or with Saul." First Samuel 28. "That is true," said the bailiff; "I have read that." Then I said, "Christ Himself also says that they will say: 'Lord, have we not cast out devils in Your name? But He will answer them: Depart from me; I know you not.'" Matthew 7, verses 22 and 23. Then the bailiff said: "Jan Hendrickss does not believe it; do you, Jan Hendrickss?" "No, Sir Bailiff," said I, "there is so much villainy committed." "Yes," said the priest, "much indeed has been done that was not good;" and he related that there had been popes who had not done what was good, but what was wrong. This the priest himself acknowledged; but "there was now," said he, "an old, able man as pope, of whom much good was said, and he confessed that there were bad abuses among them." "Paul says," said I, "that the old leaven ought to be purged out, and that if any man who is called a brother is a drunkard, or a railer, or a fornicator, we ought to have nothing to do with such a one;" but of this, as it seemed, he had little understanding. "Indeed," said the bailiff, "if there were a man who would have to do with another man's wife, I would not want to have anything to do with him."

The priest then, I think, asked me why I had left them. I said that I had indeed heard the priests preach a great deal, very severely censuring popery, but that they did not practice what they preached; that they drank to such excess that they would fight, strike and rave as though they were madmen, and for this reason I left. This I confessed to him because the bailiff was present; when there were no lords present, I did not wish to bring up their things. I said: "They always want to instruct us in prison; they ought to set us at liberty, and then instruct us;" but nothing was said about this. And when we had had many words together, I asked the bailiff, saying: "Sir Bailiff, I must ask you something: if I should renounce my faith; however, I do not say that." "Well," [n1071-3] said the bailiff, "I do not say it either, that you do." "But if I did, would you assure me of my life, and release me." "This I will not say, but I still say as my lords said, that we will do our best in that respect." "Yes, Sir Bailiff," said I, "what would that mean? It has happened that people have renounced their faith, and were put to death anyway, as has been seen in Delft." "Yes," said the bailiff, "some were also released." This I had to ask him once, to hear what he would say; for we had talked about it together. Not that we intended to renounce our faith, but to hear what they would say. For it has never been my mind, nor have I ever had any inclination for it; but it gave me a good reason, when they tormented us to renounce, to give them this for an answer. Why should we renounce our faith? Our life is not assured to us. We had many words together, but these are the principal things that were said which I have remembered, for my memory is not strong. If I were to write everything, I would need much paper, for it lasted a full four hours. Because it lasted so long, my fellow brothers were very sorrowful, for they thought and believed that I had been confined somewhere else, away from them.

The bailiff then rang the bell, and the beadles came. I then said to the priest: "If my lord had not been present, I would not have made so many words with you." "That I believe," said the priest. I took off my cap and wished them good evening, and they did the same to me. And I said to the pastor and begged him, that if I had spoken any word too hastily, he should excuse me for it. "Yes," said the bailiff, "and so do you to him, do you not?" "Yes," said I; and so we parted.

It further happened that they confined all three of us in separate places, apart from one another, and took the Bible away from us, one which they themselves had let us have, and which the bailiff had previously agreed that we might have; but we remained of very good cheer, the Lord be praised.

On Sunday, the 16th of July, 1570, I was taken down again, and they tied my arms, which they had never done before, for I had gone down with the jailer, fettered together with another. This surprised me much, and the beadles then told me that the priests had required it of the bailiff. Thus they brought me before two priests, namely, Mr. Maerten, and the pastor of the New Church, who had once before been to see me. When I came to them, I wished them good day, and they returned the greeting. Then they said: "We have visited you once, and now we come again, to see whether you are not more willing to yield than you were the other time." I said: "I say what I have already said: if it can be proved to me clearly and expressly that infants were baptized, I will gladly let myself be instructed." With this answer they were not well pleased, since they have no Scripture for it. But they insisted that I must let myself be instructed, and that infants had long been baptized in the Christian church, and that it had always been an ordinance; but I held to the proof furnished by the practice of the apostles. They said that we ought to walk in the old paths. "Yes, in the right ones," said I; "so it is written." Jeremiah 6, verse 16. They had come to instruct me. "Yes," said I, "I cannot understand it so." This they did not like to hear, that I could not understand it; and they said: "You want to understand it before you accept it." "It is written," said he, "in the prophet Isaiah, that we must first accept it, before we believe it." "Where is it written?" said I. "I do not know," said the priest. "Romans 10, verse 10," [n1071-4] said I, "we read: 'With the heart man believes to righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made to salvation.' I must certainly believe your things with the heart, if I am to accept them, but now I cannot understand it as you do." This they would not hear; but if I had firmly assented with my mouth to what they said, whether I believed it or not, it would have been all right.

They begged me much to let myself be instructed; there was not a day that they did not pray for us. They also frequently said that I held strange views, and that I was damned; if I were not damned, God would not be God, he said; and the Scriptures would not be true; this he often said. To be damned, and to lie in prison, these are not good things, I said; for I said as little to them as I could. But the damning did not hurt me; I let them go on. I said: "If you can prove to me that infants were baptized, I would like to hear it." They said that whole households were baptized, and declared that there must have been children there. Answer. "That you do not know, for there are households in which there are no children; I also do not seek salvation from the water." When they heard this they were greatly astonished. "Yes," said I, "you say that all unbaptized children are damned." "Yes," said the priest, "they are damned." "Then the women who give birth to such children are badly off." "Yes," said the priest. "Indeed," said I, "then the water must wash away sin?" "Yes," said they. Answer. "I will prove to you that it does not." I then told them that in First Peter 3, verse 21, it is written: [n1071-5] " 'The like figure to which even baptism also saves us, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience.' And the apostle baptized Simon the sorcerer, but the water did not remove his sins, for it is written that he was in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity, though he had been baptized by the apostles." "You say of Peter," said the priest, "that he writes this; how do you know it is true? Did Peter tell you himself? And Simon the sorcerer was a worthless fellow; for if the apostles had known that his heart was in this condition, they would rather have bitten their fingers than pronounced the name of God over him." Answer. "This I admit; but the water did nevertheless not wash away his sins." And they asserted that I must let myself be instructed, and said that I acted contrary to the Scriptures, for it is written, Matthew 18: "If your brother trespasses against you, rebuke him; and if he will not hear you, tell it to the college." "See," said they, "you will not hear us now that we rebuke you; in this you certainly act contrary to the Scriptures." Answer. "What would you teach me then? Would you let me go then, and shun me as a heathen and a publican?" "No, no," said the priest, "this is your favorite theme, which you always bring up." (For I had had many words with him about it the last time.) But to let me go was not in their power, he said. Answer. "Christ certainly says that when they are reproved and will not hear, they are to be shunned, and not apprehended. And Paul also says: 'A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject.' Titus 3, verse 10. And now I will not hear you, therefore you ought to let me go." But they did not listen to this; that was the magistracy's business, they said. Answer. "You certainly have a faith; show me once where the apostles had magistrates in their church."

Then the priest said that Peter had killed two persons. Answer. "You cannot prove that to me, neither by word nor deed." Then he read from a German Testament that Ananias and his wife sold their possessions, and did not bring all of it and lay it at the apostles' feet, but kept back a part of it. Then Peter said: Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Ghost? You have not lied to men, but to God. When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and gave up the ghost. Three hours later his wife came, and Peter asked her too whether they had sold the land for so much. She said: Yes. Peter said to her: How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out. Then she fell down at once at his feet and yielded up the ghost. Acts 5. When he had read, I said: "Who can say that Peter did it, for it reads that when they heard these words they gave up the ghost." We had many words which I have partly forgotten; they begged me to let myself be instructed. "Well," said I, "I cannot understand it so." To this they would not listen, that I would first understand it before I accepted it; and they said that their faith had always existed for fifteen hundred years; they would show me from year to year how their church had been built up, and they named to me many of their teachers or bishops, Augustine and others; how it first came from Spain into France, from where Saint Willeboort brought it into these countries; and many other things they told me. And though whole countries apostatized from them, there were again large countries that adopted their faith, as for instance in India, where the Lord did great signs, so that there were persons who in one month learned another language, and accepted the faith, and even preached within one month; and many other things they told me. I asked whether that country was large. They said: "As large as Spain, France, Germany and this country taken together."

Thus their faith had always existed, and could not perish, for Christ had said: "I will be with you to the end of the world;" but our faith had not existed so long; for [said they] you cannot prove to us that your church has always existed. "I know," said the priest, "that you will name to me five or six persons." Then I said: It would have been much better if he had heard Micaiah than the four hundred false prophets. (The king of Judah, First Kings 22.) They tried hard to draw me out as to whether I was baptized, but the Lord kept my lips, and I did not tell them. They had heard it said, they told me. I asked whether they had heard me say it. They said: "No." I replied: "I do not want to tell you either." They said: "We do not wish to know it."

And when they found that I would not listen to them, they told me time and again that I was damned, and that I was a murderer of souls, that I had murdered many souls, and they had heard it said that I had caused many to apostatize from the Roman church. I said: "I have murdered no one's soul." He said: "You say that we are murderers ourselves." I said: "You have not heard me say that." They told me to consider the matter, and if I desired it, they would come again. Thus we parted amicably.

These are the principal points of our conversation, for it lasted about two hours. I would not be able to write the whole of it, for I cannot remember it, and it would be impossible for me to give the exact conversation without leaving out or adding to it.

Written by me, JAN HENDRICKSS